Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Well obviously this is not going to stay at 7.5 billion.

 

[Neutrino]

Any chance of leveraging CIB mechanisms to fund this?

 

[BurlOak]

Yes based on the one stop plan from a few years ago.

You make a good point, but I wanted to keep it consistent in terms of what we're comparing.

Interesting that $1.6 billion for a 2 stop subway was not deemed a worthwhile investment in 2006 - the LRT was budgeted at $1.5 billion, though it offered a lot more access.

Now 13 years later we're at $4 billion and counting for just one stop.

I suppose the $250M to convert the SRT to Mark III has also gone up by a factor of 4 - so it's $1.0B ($3B less than SSE)?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

As should be a surprise to no one. Did anyone honestly expect the Province to take over Subway construction and maintenence and pay for both the Provinces and Cities share?

A lot of people advocating for the yolks were saying exactly that, yes. One of the main premises for the upload was to take the capex and opex for the subway off Toronto’s budgetary burden.

Anyways I hope the city refuses to pay. QP isn’t acting in good faith here. QP is clearly intent on cutting Toronto out of the decision making process, so they can pay the whole bill.

 

[nfitz]

Well obviously this is not going to stay at 7.5 billion.

Probably not, as that's just for new lines.

TTC has already identified another $30 billion of capital spending in the next few years, most of it for subway lines (ATC, new rolling stock, new yard, elevators, fire safety, second entrances, etc.). Not sure if the province will make city pay 25% of this or 100% of this ...

So maybe $37.5 billion.

A lot of people advocating for the yolks were saying exactly that, yes. One of the main premises for the upload was to take the capex and opex for the subway off Toronto’s budgetary burden.

That was the original Liberal uploading plan.

Now that the anti-Toronto party is in power, this seems more like raping city treasury, and making city property tax payers bend over, so Doug Ford can personally stick his hands deep up your pockets.

Digging deeper into the provinces proposal, it's interesting to see that both the Eglinton East LRT and Sheppard East (both as LRT and subway) are off the table.

I don't comprehend the special hatred that Ford seems to have for Scarborough.

 

[sixrings]

I thought Scarborough subway extension was predicated on the eglinton east lrt being built as well. At least that's what one city told me.

 

[syn]

I suppose the $250M to convert the SRT to Mark III has also gone up by a factor of 4 - so it's $1.0B ($3B less than SSE)?

No idea.

The SSE seems unique in terms of cost increases, especially relative to value.

 

[syn]

I thought the province said they'd pay for all capital costs as part of their ownership?

This doesn't seem much different than the current funding setup, the difference is that the province gets more control.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Surprise, the whole thing about freeing up Toronto’s books was bullshit. Dougie just wants a subway folks

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Probably not, as that's just for new lines.

TTC has already identified another $30 billion of capital spending in the next few years, most of it for subway lines (ATC, new rolling stock, new yard, elevators, fire safety, second entrances, etc.). Not sure if the province will make city pay 25% of this or 100% of this ...

So maybe $37.5 billion.

That was the original Liberal uploading plan.

Now that the anti-Toronto party is in power, this seems more like raping city treasury, and making city property tax payers bend over, so Doug Ford can personally stick his hands deep up your pockets.

Digging deeper into the provinces proposal, it's interesting to see that both the Eglinton East LRT and Sheppard East (both as LRT and subway) are off the table.

I don't comprehend the special hatred that Ford seems to have for Scarborough.

Yeah I want to know whats happening with Sheppard and Eglinton East myself!

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Surprise, the whole thing about freeing up Toronto’s books was bullshit. Dougie just wants a subway folks

Also none of these projects are being built. We’ve been hoodwinked, bamboozled, run amok, led astray and flat-out deceived by the government.

 

[syn]

Scarborough’s one-stop subway: ‘This was a bait and switch

I'm glad to see The Star holding the city to account on this entire fiasco.

Solid evidence that the SSE is almost entirely a political exercise.

"And yet, the estimate for the subway extension now stands a $3.9 billion, according to city staff, putting the cost of the two-for-one transit plan at just over $5.5 billion."

 

[44 North]

I thought the province said they'd pay for all capital costs as part of their ownership?

This doesn't seem much different than the current funding setup, the difference is that the province gets more control.

Surprise, the whole thing about freeing up Toronto’s books was bullshit. Dougie just wants a subway folks

Exactly, that's the scam. And the desire for control is largely being backed by the south half of York Region. Nowhere else in Ontario is interested in owning the subways, and outside of York Region nowhere else in the GTA has any visions for subways. Not Durham, not Peel, and certainly not beyond that. There's some damn shady politicians and it's almost criminal if the Prov can use a Confederation-era loophole to take ownership of a city's vital infrastructure for such shallow reasons.

 

[Rainforest]

I have a mixed feeling about the latest developments. On one hand, Scarborough is posed to win, big time. The 3-stop subway extension will improve their transit situation a lot; much more than any comparable-price light rail projects could improve it. Some jealous commenters are trying to pretend otherwise, but they are wrong.

I can't blame Scarborough for pushing their case; they need better transit connectivity. Good for them.

On the other hand, the city as a whole is in trouble. If it has to raise $7.5 billion on its own to make the Ford's plan roll, that's a formidable task. In fact if the city could raise $7.5 billion on its own, then it could build Relief Line East up to Bloor on its own, without any help from the province.

The surtax for SSE self-imposed by the city back in 2013 was meant to raise just over 1 billion, and is still in the process of being collected. 7.5 billion, at this rate, will take decades.

But if the city refuses to contribute to the provincial plan, the province will bail out of its own commitments. Not an easy situation.

 

[Rainforest]

Perhaps the city should itemize its contributions, rather than agree to contribute the grand total. Making contributions on per-project bases will give the city some leverage in choosing the order and the timing.