Cycling infrastructure (Separated bike lanes)

[Fred.S]

Yeah, from what I can tell looking at this stretch of road on Google Maps streetview and the photos in this thread, the curbs were completely redone (see red lines) to get rid of what is presumably an old bus layby on the west side and the rightmost lane for a bus stop on the east side (both shaded yellow). I am genuinely curious why the new curbs could just not be done at the curb line.

Moving a curb is not as easy as it may seem. Some reasons why:

- The road profile is a big one. The roadway is sloped so that it drains outward to the gutter beside the curb. The sidewalk/boulevard would drain inwards towards that same gutter. Moving the curb would change both of these slopes, and so there are practical limits to how much you can move a curb without flattening out the roadway or sidewalk, or potentially backdraining the sidewalk onto the private property which would be a problem. If you wanted to move the curb say a meter on a relatively narrow street, you end up having to reconstruct the entire roadway and boulevard to reprofile it.
- Stormdrains are under or close to the curb, connected to the catchbasin embedded in the gutter or side inlets in the curb. Moving the curbs a lot could mean rebuilding/repositioning the storm drains under the roadway, which again means means reconstructing much of the road.
- Utilities are also very plentiful under the street, and many are under the curb lanes and boulevard between the curb and sidewalk, or the sidewalk if it's against the curb. Moving curbs could mean having utilities move their underground infrastructure, and often there just isn't room. Many utilities, such as water and gas mains have required offsets to other utilities. Ther are lots of pipes and electrical and communications cables under there.

All of the above can be overcome, but it usually requires a lot of money and design effort that often is only justified if the street already needs to be fully reconstructed. With normal street re-paving, contractors are only really fixing existing curbs and redoing the top level of asphalt, not dealing with utility relocations, redoing the entire road base and reprofiling the street. Often road surveys and engineering design are not required. Road markings are easy, so narrowing the road with paint, while not a perfect solution, is an improvement that is much cheaper.

What gets me are roads that are completly redone, with sub-standard cycling infrastructure, i.e. bike lanes (instead of cycle tracks) on parts of the Eglinton LRT or some VIVA bus ways. Usually a result of being contractually committed to obsolete designs that were tendered 10 years ago, but being constructed now.

 

[alweky]

Noticed a couple more of these installed in Willowdale, there was another at North York Centre and one a bit south of Finch.
Too bad Transform Yonge is still over a year away.

 

[Northern Light]

Noticed a couple more of these installed in Willowdale, there was another at North York Centre and one a bit south of Finch.

Bikeshare in North York Centre, and adjacent, now looks like this:

We have a dedicated Bikeshare Toronto thread for discussing this, which can be found here:

Toronto Bike Share

I saw a new station on the south side of the well. Just a bit west off the intersection to the west. I think its new?

urbantoronto.ca

Too bad Transform Yonge is still over a year away.

Currently a lot more than a year, I'm afraid....

Its currently penciled in for 2029.

I would like to think it could be brought forward a bit. But it definitely won't be next year or 2026.

 

[SubHuman]

Doing another bike traffic study, this one is for August 1st. Link to the previous one https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/cycling-infrastructure-separated-bike-lanes.15478/post-2111332 ...

I stopped to look at this counter/sign thing on the north side of Bloor St W at Oakmount for a minute or two yesterday (02 Sep 2024) just before 7:30 pm.
I saw the "Cyclists today" number increase by one each time as six westbound bikes passed, so I assume it's reasonably accurate.

 

[turbanplanner]

I stopped to look at this counter/sign thing on the north side of Bloor St W at Oakmount for a minute or two yesterday (02 Sep 2024) just before 7:30 pm.
I saw the "Cyclists today" number increase by one each time as six westbound bikes passed, so I assume it's reasonably accurate.
View attachment 593541

I don't doubt some sections of the lanes are used! I think like all things there has to be a balance between idealism and reality.

Like adding lanes to the industrial section of Kipling seems idiotic

 

[MisterF]

I don't doubt some sections of the lanes are used! I think like all things there has to be a balance between idealism and reality.

Like adding lanes to the industrial section of Kipling seems idiotic

Industrial areas can and should be made safe to get around on a bike.

 

[turbanplanner]

Industrial areas can and should be made safe to get around on a bike.

Lanes are being added to Islington which is 1 street over, I think it's an incredible waste of money to add them to an area that will see nearly zero use.

Why not add them to the Gardiner and 401 by that logic. Everything needs a balance

 

[NoahB]

Lanes are being added to Islington which is 1 street over, I think it's an incredible waste of money to add them to an area that will see nearly zero use.

I see some corners of Cabbagetown seeing little vehicular use. We should rip the roads as it is a waste of money. Replace it with lava or something. More natural.

But some residents will want to drive in and out of their homes, you say?

Well, I say these residents don't need to drive. So they should walk on the sidewalk.


But! But! They need to have the option to drive without the roads melting their vehicles!


Fair enough. As should people who bike be able to get safely to their destination. Bike lanes are not an optional thing to have for scenic routes. If you want people to commute to work in a factory by bike, you need to make it safe for them to do so. There is no point in them biking on Islington only to be hit by a truck on Evans Avenue.

Why not add them to the Gardiner and 401 by that logic. Everything needs a balance

The Gardiner has the Martin Goodman Trail/lakeshore paralleling it. I have biked to Hamilton from downtown before. If there was a more direct highway-like bike route attached to the 403, I would have taken it.

PS: Islington does not have a bike lane. The nearest north-south bike lane is on Royal York.

 

[turbanplanner]

I see some corners of Cabbagetown seeing little vehicular use. We should rip the roads as it is a waste of money. Replace it with lava or something. More natural.

But some residents will want to drive in and out of their homes, you say?

Well, I say these residents don't need to drive. So they should walk on the sidewalk.


But! But! They need to have the option to drive without the roads melting their vehicles!


Fair enough. As should people who bike be able to get safely to their destination. Bike lanes are not an optional thing to have for scenic routes. If you want people to commute to work in a factory by bike, you need to make it safe for them to do so. There is no point in them biking on Islington only to be hit by a truck on Evans Avenue.



The Gardiner has the Martin Goodman Trail/lakeshore paralleling it. I have biked to Hamilton from downtown before. If there was a more direct highway-like bike route attached to the 403, I would have taken it.

PS: Islington does not have a bike lane. The nearest north-south bike lane is on Royal York.

AFAIK islington is planned to have a bike lane in the near future, as well as Kipling.

I'm not against having a lane if the demand warrants it but seeing how the Bloor street extension, full of houses and places to go at a short distance has minimal ridership for the time being, the city would be wise to spend limited resources implementing lanes on routes that make more sense.

 

[MisterF]

Lanes are being added to Islington which is 1 street over, I think it's an incredible waste of money to add them to an area that will see nearly zero use.

Why not add them to the Gardiner and 401 by that logic. Everything needs a balance

You were talking about Kipling. Islington is not one street over from Kipling. A bike lane on one street is useless to someone trying to get to work on the other.

What do you base your prediction of zero use on, one of your so called studies?

 

[Mariner35]

You were talking about Kipling. Islington is not one street over from Kipling. A bike lane on one street is useless to someone trying to get to work on the other.

What do you base your prediction of zero use on, one of your so called studies?

Seems like this convo happens about once a month in this thread.

Bike lanes much like winter are coming. Dread them, run from them, destiny arrives all the same.

 

[nfitz]

Lanes are being added to Islington which is 1 street over, I think it's an incredible waste of money to add them to an area that will see nearly zero use.

Kipling is one street over from Islington?

That's like saying that the DVP is one expressway over from the 427. Obviously there needs to be bike infrastructure on both streets!

Though I suppose one could just remove cars entirely from Kipling, because the cars can always use Islington which is "only one street over".

 

[Northern Light]

Seems like this convo happens about once a month in this thread.

Bike lanes much like winter are coming. Dread them, run from them, destiny arrives all the same.

Principally caused by one poster, who I have placed on ignore. I wish others would join me, his posts are unnecessary distraction, lacking utility.

 

[turbanplanner]

Kipling is one street over from Islington?

That's like saying that the DVP is one expressway over from the 427. Obviously there needs to be bike infrastructure on both streets!

Though I suppose one could just remove cars entirely from Kipling, because the cars can always use Islington which is "only one street over".

Is everyone so blinded we can't see reality? It's hilarious to see people arguing against subway lines here because there won't be many users (Sheppard extensions) Kipling is an Arterial road in an industrial area. The west side has hydro equipment, and various warehouses (some owned by the TTC) There is a pretty steep hill for the subway. I lived in the area for years and did not see a single bike on the re-designed portions of Kipling, Bloor or Dundas.

Kipling is fairly busy, you actually see cars unlike bikes in most of the lanes out west. I've maybe seen 10 in the last 2 years on royal york!

There is congestion for cars turning to either north queen or west onto roads like Jutland. It's very unlikely the area will densify in our lifetimes. Why don't we put bike lanes on the 400 highways? Because it doesn't make sense.

Who is the target user? Why are we wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars for maybe 10 people a day? The city is CRYING to the feds and province for money and until recently they were planning to throw away millions to changing signs.

 

[turbanplanner]

You were talking about Kipling. Islington is not one street over from Kipling. A bike lane on one street is useless to someone trying to get to work on the other.

What do you base your prediction of zero use on, one of your so called studies?

The fact I could see the Kipling and Bloor intersection from my window, and never saw a bike. I've posted bike usage for the Bloor street extension, where you could argue there merit for a lane. It does actually lead somewhere and there is density and places to shop etc on the route. Bikes aren't even 5% of the traffic on bloor according to the city's own incredible rosy numbers Imagine an industrial area? Where are people biking to? Ikea?

Seems like this convo happens about once a month in this thread.

Bike lanes much like winter are coming. Dread them, run from them, destiny arrives all the same.

We're in a free society. If I feel an idea is not worthwhile I'm free to try and convince city council. Same thing works in reverse