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CityPlace Condos

yeah definitely 13 is hard to find ... but I think this whole skipping 4s and 13 is getting a bit out of hand ... maybe that's why Tridel decided for Solaris @ Metrogate (my future home) to 'fudge it' and kept every SINGLE number from 1 through to 40
 
yeah definitely 13 is hard to find ... but I think this whole skipping 4s and 13 is getting a bit out of hand ... maybe that's why Tridel decided for Solaris @ Metrogate (my future home) to 'fudge it' and kept every SINGLE number from 1 through to 40


I see a lot of 4's in many condo's/office buildings. But 13 is definitetly hard to find. Most hotels if not all in the US/Canada don't have 13.
 
Cityplace or All Downtown Condos?
It seems this thread has assigned the Cityplace condos the role as the posterchild for the recent explosion of downtown condo development.

My post is more on the topic of the lessons to be learned from St.Jamestown, and the longterm resale prospects for the many newly built starter condos in the downtown core.

My Background/Perspective
I'm in the market for two residences in the next 3-12 months (condo or otherwise). One for me, and one for my handicapped-yet-independent brother who presently lives in CityHomes public housing.

I work in a sophisticated position in the financial sector, but have not previously been a homeowner and am a real estate novice who has therefore been studying diligently over the past several months

New Condos: Principal or Rental Residences?
An article from the Toronto Star says there were 17000 downtown condo units build from 2001-2006 http://www.thestar.com/News/article/270694 (As a Toronto native I consider "downtown" as being east of the DVP, south of Bloor, west of Dufferin, and north of Lake Ontario)

I wouldn't be surprised if there were to be at least another 17000 units to come online between 2007-2011.

Despite the large number of new units , the following City of Toronto report from 2006 references serious concerns about the supply of rental units http://www.toronto.ca/planning/pdf/housing_rental.pdf. There it would seem to imply that many(most?) of the new condos are presently principal residences.

My question
Who are these new condo owners, and what will be the resale market for these units in 5-10 years?

Theory 1:
The new condos are mostly first time owners, young professionals employed downtown, 25-40yrs old. In 5-10 years, as they get married and start families, the standard 1 bedroom + den 650sf condo will prove woefully inadequate for 2 adults + children. There are proportionately much fewer 2 bedroom condos, and those that do exist aren't really that suitable for raising a family.

Therefore despite the recent surge in new units, they are mostly geared towards singles/couples without children, and many of the present condo owners will be looking to relocate out of the downtown core in 5-10 years.

They will therefore need to either sell their units to the new generation of 25-40yr old first time owner, or turn their unit into a rental property.

The resale value of their unit will be entirely limited by the earning power of the future downtown early career yuppie and, if recent history is any indication, that earning power will not have increased in real terms in 5-10 years. Thus, there will be little prospect for appreciation in the many thousands of cookie cutter condos in the downtown core.

Further, given the historically low interest rates, and considering that the younger homeowner is usually highly dependent upon a highratio mortgage, we can expect to see a highly inverse correlation between BoC prime and downtown condo resale prices.

Translation: Many of these new cookie cutter condos (glass and concrete with no design) will indeed become tomorrow's St.Jamestown-esque rental units. Albeit more upscale and centrally located. But longterm their only future is as a rental unit, or a short-term residence for their present owner with limited appreciation potential.

Theory 2:
Major cities throughout the world have highly priced downtown real estate. If one looks at cities like New York and London, the price of the downtown realestate is completely out of sync with earning power. The people who can afford to live downtown have accumulated significant wealth, or perhaps simply got into the downtown real estate market at the ground floor.

As Toronto continues to grow, commuting gridlock will worsen, and many mid-career professionals (40-50) will happily pay a premium housing cost to avoid unpleasant commutes.

Similarly, many downtown corporations will pay their entry level employees a premium salary to have them located close to work so they are available for staying late/coming in on the weekends (aka the go-getter New York model)

Toronto is blessed with a huge tract of underveloped land downtown aka the waterfront/railway lands (indeed, almost unmatched in North America I would suggest?) and as the market need moves towards family suitable condos, developers will be happy to oblige. The double income professionals, having build up equity from the appreciation of their starter condos, will be well able to afford these new developments.

While many developments (like City Place) may presently lack a sense of "neigbourhood", the freemarket system will find ways to provide the required bars/restaurants/etc.

As the relatively young City of Toronto begins to build up some real wealth among a broader base of its citizenry, the downtown condo market will become much less susceptible to fluctuations in the BoC rate vis-a-vis mortgage rates.

Translation: Buy the right unit downtown (any unit downtown?), and you've bought yourself a goldmine shortterm residence and mid-term/long-term investment.

Conclusion
Ok, lol, despite the use of bold and underlining this is not some deeply cherished thesis. My present opinion on the above is that I think it is probably 80% #1, and 20%#2. That is to say, that I reckon that 80% of the new units fall into category #1. But as I continue on the RE learning curve, my opinions change every week.

I offer my perspective without any warrany of expertise and I welcome and any feedback.
 
Cityplace or All Downtown Condos?
It seems this thread has assigned the Cityplace condos the role as the posterchild for the recent explosion of downtown condo development.

My post is more on the topic of the lessons to be learned from St.Jamestown, and the longterm resale prospects for the many newly built starter condos in the downtown core.

My Background/Perspective
I'm in the market for two residences in the next 3-12 months (condo or otherwise). One for me, and one for my handicapped-yet-independent brother who presently lives in CityHomes public housing.

I work in a sophisticated position in the financial sector, but have not previously been a homeowner and am a real estate novice who has therefore been studying diligently over the past several months

New Condos: Principal or Rental Residences?
An article from the Toronto Star says there were 17000 downtown condo units build from 2001-2006 http://www.thestar.com/News/article/270694 (As a Toronto native I consider "downtown" as being east of the DVP, south of Bloor, west of Dufferin, and north of Lake Ontario)

I wouldn't be surprised if there were to be at least another 17000 units to come online between 2007-2011.

Despite the large number of new units , the following City of Toronto report from 2006 references serious concerns about the supply of rental units http://www.toronto.ca/planning/pdf/housing_rental.pdf. There it would seem to imply that many(most?) of the new condos are presently principal residences.

My question
Who are these new condo owners, and what will be the resale market for these units in 5-10 years?

Theory 1:
The new condos are mostly first time owners, young professionals employed downtown, 25-40yrs old. In 5-10 years, as they get married and start families, the standard 1 bedroom + den 650sf condo will prove woefully inadequate for 2 adults + children. There are proportionately much fewer 2 bedroom condos, and those that do exist aren't really that suitable for raising a family.

Therefore despite the recent surge in new units, they are mostly geared towards singles/couples without children, and many of the present condo owners will be looking to relocate out of the downtown core in 5-10 years.

They will therefore need to either sell their units to the new generation of 25-40yr old first time owner, or turn their unit into a rental property.

The resale value of their unit will be entirely limited by the earning power of the future downtown early career yuppie and, if recent history is any indication, that earning power will not have increased in real terms in 5-10 years. Thus, there will be little prospect for appreciation in the many thousands of cookie cutter condos in the downtown core.

Further, given the historically low interest rates, and considering that the younger homeowner is usually highly dependent upon a highratio mortgage, we can expect to see a highly inverse correlation between BoC prime and downtown condo resale prices.

Translation: Many of these new cookie cutter condos (glass and concrete with no design) will indeed become tomorrow's St.Jamestown-esque rental units. Albeit more upscale and centrally located. But longterm their only future is as a rental unit, or a short-term residence for their present owner with limited appreciation potential.

Theory 2:
Major cities throughout the world have highly priced downtown real estate. If one looks at cities like New York and London, the price of the downtown realestate is completely out of sync with earning power. The people who can afford to live downtown have accumulated significant wealth, or perhaps simply got into the downtown real estate market at the ground floor.

As Toronto continues to grow, commuting gridlock will worsen, and many mid-career professionals (40-50) will happily pay a premium housing cost to avoid unpleasant commutes.

Similarly, many downtown corporations will pay their entry level employees a premium salary to have them located close to work so they are available for staying late/coming in on the weekends (aka the go-getter New York model)

Toronto is blessed with a huge tract of underveloped land downtown aka the waterfront/railway lands (indeed, almost unmatched in North America I would suggest?) and as the market need moves towards family suitable condos, developers will be happy to oblige. The double income professionals, having build up equity from the appreciation of their starter condos, will be well able to afford these new developments.

While many developments (like City Place) may presently lack a sense of "neigbourhood", the freemarket system will find ways to provide the required bars/restaurants/etc.

As the relatively young City of Toronto begins to build up some real wealth among a broader base of its citizenry, the downtown condo market will become much less susceptible to fluctuations in the BoC rate vis-a-vis mortgage rates.

Translation: Buy the right unit downtown (any unit downtown?), and you've bought yourself a goldmine shortterm residence and mid-term/long-term investment.

Conclusion
Ok, lol, despite the use of bold and underlining this is not some deeply cherished thesis. My present opinion on the above is that I think it is probably 80% #1, and 20%#2. That is to say, that I reckon that 80% of the new units fall into category #1. But as I continue on the RE learning curve, my opinions change every week.

I offer my perspective without any warrany of expertise and I welcome and any feedback.

This so-called theory of yours is so non-sensical that it beggars belief. Your main argument for the depreciation of these condos is contradictory and illogical.

Lets go back and take a closer look at your argument. First of all you present two groups of people. The existing residents of cityplace; defined here as young professionals 25-40. And the hypothetical future residents of cityplace; defined once again as young professionals 25-40. So basically were taking about the same group of people, same age, same status and according to one of the further points you made, relating to the fact that wages will not change in 5-10 years, same earning power. (You could make an argument here for inflation which in a sense could be seen to even decrease this groups level of income, but I could counter-argue that cost-of-living increases, which will increase in the next 5-10 years, would restore the balance.) The only argument you make to try to differentiate these two groups is by saying that the latter, the future residents, "as young home owners [they] will be highly dependent on a highratio mortgage". But both these groups of people are supposed to be the same age. This is as much factor for the existing residents as it will be for the the future residents. So as you see, down to every conceivable criteria, there the same people.

Your argument then goes on to propose that since this future generation cannot afford to buy these condos this will lead to full-scale depreciation. Taking all the aforementioned information into consideration what, really, is the reason the 'newer generation" of these two groups of people, one generation of time being the only differing factor, can now no longer afford to buy from the "older generation" Quite logically it is because the condos have increased in value. Your entire argument can be paraphrased as "the reason these condos will not increase in value is because these condos will increase in value". Like I said contradictory and illogical.

The scenario hinted at above is in fact, although I won't be bold enough to give a percentage, actually the most likely to happen. That of a younger generation of people being unable to attain a foot on the property ladder due to appreciation of property values. It is this exact same situation that has happend in England, where I am from, and although property here has started to depreciate a little, it is still way too expensive for most first time buyers. Increasing property values is what deters first time buyers, this "future generation" of yours, not the flimsy reasons you presented.

Your argument also does not take into account certain variables such as Toronto's booming population due to increasing levels of immigration. Which, if they are integrated properly into the community, of which Canada and particularly Toronto has a habit of doing extremely well, will further increase the demand for new property.
 
Boppey,

Jeez, why don't you tell us what you really think? :)

Just a few clarifications in what I had wrote:

-I didn't use the word "depreciation" anywhere in my post

-I think that both present and future owners of these units are equally dependent upon high ratio mortgages. However the former class benefits from historically low mortgage rates. With only 5% down, would not a 50% increase in mortgage rates lead to a proportionate decrease in purchasing power?

-As I state at the beginning my post is not about Cityplace condos, but rather about the many new similar developments.

-The central principle of my post was that these many of units seem unsuitable for starting a family, and thus one can only live there for just so long. This distinguishes this newer brand of much smaller condos from the condos of the past, and from freehold units.

One question for you - do you own one or more recently built downtown condos? I think that is a fair question, given how strongly you feel on the topic.

kind regards
 
i've never really seen any condos with sufficient cap to consider as an investment. i would guess the majority who purchase condos as an investment are hoping for market appreciation. in my opinion not a good way to invest in real estate. condos are great to live in but as an investment vehicle...not a good idea.
 
i've never really seen any condos with sufficient cap to consider as an investment. i would guess the majority who purchase condos as an investment are hoping for market appreciation. in my opinion not a good way to invest in real estate. condos are great to live in but as an investment vehicle...not a good idea.

not a good idea? ask Brad Lamp and his clients or Cityplace investors how much money (real money) they have made with Condos in the last 5 years and then you can tell us if it is not a good idea
 
I'm sure Brad Lamb and Cityplace investors would agree with you carturo15 given the strong real estate market in the past couple years, I believe cabbagetowner's point is 'forward thinking' and it may very well be one's own perspective that differs from other Cityplace investors
 
Speaking of CityPlace condos ... I was in the sales office on the weekend and the sales person was saying Parade 2 (west half of that complex) was selling quite slowly, makes you think if the RE market is slowing down that much or is it just the mere fact this building will be abutting the TCHC project to the west (and people's general negative association of public housing)
 
not a good idea? ask Brad Lamp and his clients or Cityplace investors how much money (real money) they have made with Condos in the last 5 years and then you can tell us if it is not a good idea

yes they've made money. i would guess not on the income, but on the market appreciation. condos tend to have a low cap. multiple unit, mixed commercial typically have higher caps. had they put themselves in real estate with a better cap than they might have made more money - income PLUS market appreciation.

the last couple of years all real estate in toronto has increased...rising tides, all ships rise. it didn't take a genius to make money in real estate in these times. going forward is going to be tougher and the people that buy hoping for the double digit appreciation are probably going to be disappointed. people who buy on income will continue to do fine.

think of the sales pitch that the brad lamb guys give to you in their showrooms. they never mention cap, the rent that the unit can bring in or whether they could carry themselves. they always talk about the market appreciation like it's guaranteed. it's the same kind of thinking that hurt our neighbours to the south.
 
Speaking of CityPlace condos ... I was in the sales office on the weekend and the sales person was saying Parade 2 (west half of that complex) was selling quite slowly, makes you think if the RE market is slowing down that much or is it just the mere fact this building will be abutting the TCHC project to the west (and people's general negative association of public housing)

I doubt the average condo buyer knows about the TCHC project to the west. And I'm guessing the concord sales people don't do much to publicize that fact.
 
An interesting thread - I tend to agree with some of the points being made by both "sides"

I thought I'd add my perspective on things. I currently rent a 2 Bedroom + Den at 35 Mariner Terrace about 1/2 way up the building. I'm in my mid 30's, married with one child and am a renter by choice. I sold my previous place (one of those yellow town homes on Stadium Road) in January and will rent until our new place is ready at West Harbour City.

When we moved, we wanted to stay in the area and be able to walk to our jobs on Front Street. We read a lot of negative things about Cityplace online but when we spoke to people who lived in the buildings, they all seemed to love them.

Perhaps we're lucky but the horror stories about loud parties, etc. just don't seem to hold true for us. We never hear the people around us and for the most part, the building seems to be very well cared for. I always see the cleaning staff at work and feel that the building is being looked after very well. The Superclub is amazing and when things need repair, they are usually completed very quickly. For example, the treadmill was fixed within 48 hours last month. Everyone we see and meet is polite and friendly.

On the other hand, the quality of construction seems a little poor. The posts about the windows being hard to open as the building shifts or when there is different weather is very true. The window seals are already showing signs of aging and the building is only a few years old. When we first moved in, we noticed that we could small smoke coming from the next unit to ours which we addressed by plugging the small open spaces under the sinks where the pipes come in.

Bottom line is that it's a great building to live in now but I would not purchase in the building. That is based only on the construction quality, not the people, etc. The area will come to live as it gets a few years older and the dust settles...

Two other thoughts - We used to live in a new home in Newmarket and then moved to Stadium Road - both places had small issues with respect to construction quality - I personally don't think Cityplace is much worse - I just think that builders tend to use cheap quality finishes these days...

Second thought - nothing wrong with TCHC in the area. There was a similar building on Stadium Road and the people were great - my daughter still plays with some of the friends she made there.

Good luck with your purchase decision !!
 
I also live in Cityplace. I've been here for about 2 months. I was a little reluctant to buy at first based on opinions on these forums, but when a deal I felt was worth the risk came up, I decided to purchase anyway. Yes, there are a few issues that still need to be ironed out, however, based on my experience, this is the case with all new developments. Similar to the previous poster, I've never come across any problems with my neighbors. The ages of residents range from late 20's to seniors.

I've noticed no real construction problems specifically in my unit. I don't hear the street noise too much and the windows and doors open very easily for me.

Would I purchase at CP again? Sure.

If I had to complain about anything, it would be St. Louis Ribs ... that place is terrible. I hope it gets replaced with something better ... possibly a Jack Astors.
 
GST/HST Transitional Rebate Application

I'm not great at decipering legal documents so correct me if I didn't translate this correctly:

Cityplace Agreement of Purchase and Sale section 31 states that I agree that the purchase price includes the GST and any rebates or material and forms to obtain rebates etc are to be turned over to the vendor. If I don't qualify for a rebate I would still have to pay the vendor the equivalent of this amount if I had qualified.

How does this impact on the 2008 GST/HST rate Reduction and Purchases of New Housing http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/gi/no...tice226-e.html ? Would love some opinions/insight?
 
from what my lawyer said, you'll have to apply for the rebate. But it depends when you had interim closing. The 5% tax came into effect Jan 2008. So if you had interim closing before then, you only get 1% back I think
 

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