Chinatown

[King of Kensington]

thanks for your clarification. I have always been under the impression that the Chinese population has been replaced by the Vietnamese in Chinatown East. Looks like it is not the case after all.
And agree with you that when people say China, they always refer to Dundas/Spadina, with no ambiguity.

There was a report on Chinatown east last summer http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...new-wave-of-diverse-businesses-revives-strip/

It is fair to say Chinatown east has been going downhill. The few times I went there, the restaurants are bad, and grocery stores dirty and messy, more so than Dundas/Spadina, which has the advantage of having good transit access and being close to UfT.

Yeah, at one time I think (1980s maybe?) it was seriously believed by many that the Gerrard St. Chinatown would eclipse the main Chinatown. But that never came to be.

 

[Ahsun]

Yeah, at one time I think (1980s maybe?) it was seriously believed by many that the Gerrard St. Chinatown would eclipse the main Chinatown. But that never came to be.

I believe the use of "old chinatown" may have been an adaptation of what Cantonese speakers call Spadina-Dundas Chinatown: "Gow Tong Yung Guy". Literally Old Tong (Chinese) People Street. Not many are even aware of the original Elizabeth Street Chinatown anymore. It's probably referred to as "old" because east chinatown is newer.

 

[Torontovibe]

This mall is pretty ghetto.

[video]https://youtu.be/IYFDdyf5FG4[/video]

 

[King of Kensington]

Better the mall be a flop than it suck away all the business from Spadina and Dundas.

There really isn't much of "Chinatown" south of Dundas anyway. Almost everything is on Dundas or north of Dundas.

 

[taal]

I don't find that mall TOO bad, it doesn't have a lot of empty prime retail, but sure its full of the cheaper pacific mall like stores.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I don't find that mall TOO bad, it doesn't have a lot of empty prime retail, but sure its full of the cheaper pacific mall like stores.

The mall is a pretty sad sight, and I am not sure how viable it can be when it's targeted purely at the East Asian population - but it could also be an untapped opportunity considering the upcoming changes to the area.

AoD

 

[James]

I've been in worse malls around town but the Chinatown Centre has definitely seen better days. I would be in favour of revitalizing the entire Spadina Chinatown area into something completely new, different and fresh while maintaining some Chinatown heritage.

I think a lot of the original Chinese immigrants have moved on from this area and in order to grow the neighborhood, I do feel it needs to evolve itself and not just sustain its existence. Its close proximity to U of T and Kensington Market combined with Spadina running through some prime downtown streets, it's perfect development grounds to realize a completely new vision of the "neighborhood".

 

[Torontovibe]

I've been in worse malls around town but the Chinatown Centre has definitely seen better days. I would be in favour of revitalizing the entire Spadina Chinatown area into something completely new, different and fresh while maintaining some Chinatown heritage.

I think a lot of the original Chinese immigrants have moved on from this area and in order to grow the neighborhood, I do feel it needs to evolve itself and not just sustain its existence. Its close proximity to U of T and Kensington Market combined with Spadina running through some prime downtown streets, it's perfect development grounds to realize a completely new vision of the "neighborhood".

I'm curious, what are the worse malls? Tell me and maybe I'll go film those malls too. I can only think of 3 other ghetto malls in Toronto and that's Village By The Grange, Galleria Mall and Jane/Finch Mall.

 

[nfitz]

I'm curious, what are the worse malls? Tell me and maybe I'll go film those malls too. I can only think of 3 other ghetto malls in Toronto and that's Village By The Grange, Galleria Mall and Jane/Finch Mall.

Don Mills Centre was in pretty bad shape before it got knocked down. Last time I was in what is now called "Morningside Crossing", it seemed pretty done (though that was a few years ago now). And Gerrard Square before it got renovated.

 

[Ahsun]

Chinatown Centre is a bit sad now. I remember when it was pretty, shiny and new, well tenanted. Dragon City also suffered a decline but has held on a bit better.

Honestly, I don't want this to be a "perfect development grounds to realize a completely new vision of the neighborhood". This should always be Chinatown. And the mix of building types and scale should remain unchanged to the extent possible. Some minor redevelopment of some sites may be ok, but I don't want the supermarkets, herb stores, fruit stores to ever leave or be forced to leave due to gentrification / crazy rent increases.

Torontovibe, if you're looking for ghetto malls, try the mall at the Queensway & Kipling, Crossways (although it did just renovate). Agincourt has some good dead Chinese Malls too. BTW, if you goto Queensway Kipling, you're in for a real treat.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Honestly, I don't want this to be a "perfect development grounds to realize a completely new vision of the neighborhood". This should always be Chinatown. And the mix of building types and scale should remain unchanged to the extent possible. Some minor redevelopment of some sites may be ok, but I don't want the supermarkets, herb stores, fruit stores to ever leave or be forced to leave due to gentrification / crazy rent increases.

Except I am not sure if Chinatown will remain majority Chinese in its' current format in the long run in any case. The old restaurants, supermarkets, herb stores and fruit grocers are dying left right and centre (the stretch of Dundas between AGO and Spadina is particularly sad). The clientele has moved on, aged, and is otherwise changing as part of the broader process in the core city - the retailers need to adapt to these realities to have a fighting chance. It might be premature at this point, but I think the future might be in higher quality services and merchandise instead of the current mix. The question to me is how to do you preserve a mixed income population, ensure that there is a critical mass of social and commercial support for said group AND remain relatively authentic about it all.

Speaking of dead/dying Chinese malls/plazas - is there a listing of those?

AoD

 

[Ahsun]

Many old restaurants seem to be quickly replaced with new restaurants (Dim Sum King, Asian Legend, some Korean places..), and the main 4 grocery stores are usually quite busy. There are only two grocery stores that I can remember closing, both were smaller ones. One of which has now been replaced by an equally crappy grocery store, the other, pretty much superseded by Lucky Moose.

I would say the decline has slowed somewhat, over what was happening in the late 90's-mid 00's and is sort of stabilizing. I would also say, don't under-estimate the number of visitors that don't live locally in the side streets. Although the Chinese population in the neighbourhood may be decreasing, I still often see older Chinese people coming & going to Chinatown from the westend and areas outside of Chinatown proper. I don't know how many come from the north or east (don't travel that way often).

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Many old restaurants seem to be quickly replaced with new restaurants (Dim Sum King, Asian Legend, some Korean places..), and the main 4 grocery stores are usually quite busy. There are only two grocery stores that I can remember closing, both were smaller ones. One of which has now been replaced by an equally crappy grocery store, the other, pretty much superseded by Lucky Moose.

I would say the decline has slowed somewhat, over what was happening in the late 90's-mid 00's and is sort of stabilizing. I would also say, don't under-estimate the number of visitors that don't live locally in the side streets. Although the Chinese population in the neighbourhood may be decreasing, I still often see older Chinese people coming & going to Chinatown from the westend and areas outside of Chinatown proper. I don't know how many come from the north or east (don't travel that way often).

I don't know, I find that the forementioned stretch has really gone downhill over the past few years. I think the time is ripe for the existing vendors (or new ones) to up their game a bit more (there are examples of that happening, but far to few of them). Something like a proper T&T might be catalytic to the area, actually. Also, while it is important to have older Chinese people as part of the mix (and the social support the area can offer), from the perspective of businesses they are not necessarily the high value customers that they'd want to capture and I would certainly not want to count on them to sustain the business.

AoD

 

[King of Kensington]

The Chinese population isn't declining as rapidly as people think. It's been around 7,500 in 4 census tracts in the 2001, 2006 and 2011 censuses. While certainly people move on to other city neighborhoods or the suburbs, recent immigration was able to make up for these losses. Though that may not be true today.

Significant Chinese residential population west of Bathurst as well.

 

[ksun]

I don't know, I find that the forementioned stretch has really gone downhill over the past few years. I think the time is ripe for the existing vendors (or new ones) to up their game a bit more (there are examples of that happening, but far to few of them). Something like a proper T&T might be catalytic to the area, actually. Also, while it is important to have older Chinese people as part of the mix (and the social support the area can offer), from the perspective of businesses they are not necessarily the high value customers that they'd want to capture and I would certainly not want to count on them to sustain the business.

AoD

I agree they should up their game and I think they are.

As an ethnic Chinese, the general quality of restaurants in China is rather disappointing. What's worse, the food has little variety - probably 90% of the restaurants serves essentially the same kind of food - the old highly westernized Cantonese style with minimally different menus. This is odd because Chinese food has great diversity.

Lee Garden for example is always praised by western customers but I have never heard any Chinese who recommend Lee Garden to anyone. It is more for the tourists. Asian Legend is rather bland and weird (not sure what kind of Chinese food that is). Rol San is always busy but come on, if a Dim Sum restaurant looks as crappy as that in Shanghai or Guangzhou, nobody will go there (or only students or poor people will ever go).

But it is slowly changing. During the past couple of years, a few newer restaurants offering food that is not highly westernized Cantonese style open (yes, between Beverly and Spadina on Dundas), and now there are actually a couple of them where I can go regularly without being disgusted afterwards. But it is still seriously lacking in varieties, for example, I don't see a single Shanghainese restaurants (or something similar).

Chinatown restaurants used to pay zero attention to deco and ambiance and that's slowly changing as well. Some of the new ones have much better décor (not with the stereotype dragons of course - they would be laughable in a Chinese city nowadays). These owners should realize times are different, and the demographic is changing (not everyone is from Canton any more). If they don't do something better, they will lose business rapidly. Those old Cantonese speaking clientele will eventually die and nobody is gonna replace them.

The grocery stores remain abysmally dirty. They are stuck in the 1980s thinking customers don't care about cleanness of the store whatsoever. They are busy and profitable because 1) prices are great. The same green pepper for $4.99 is $1.99 there 2) employees make something like $5/6 an hour. I agree a T&T will completely change the retail landscape here, hopefully in the Chinatown Centre (what a disaster, more like a shopping mall in the outskirts of a 3rd tier Chinese city no one has heard of). Lucky Moose is much better and I enjoy shopping there.

I don't find that mall TOO bad, it doesn't have a lot of empty prime retail, but sure its full of the cheaper pacific mall like stores.

Pacific Mall isn't that cheap. A tiny retail space rents easily for $5000 a month.