Candidates and their subway plans... The Star tells you which one is more credible

[Electrify]

The SELRT is the stupidest project on the books right now, and I applaud Thomson for wanting to cancel it.

Know this is going to bring everything off topic, but why is it so stupid? I mean we all have different visions for it, and while I'd like to see it with less stops it will still be an improvement for travelling across north Scarborough.

 

[hbl33]

My my, even Smitherman is beating Pantless Joe! Still no sign for a vote to Rocco Rossi...

 

[fanoftoronto]

I think we should wait until all the candidates come out with their complete transit plans before voting. Both Rocco Rossi and Rob Ford just said they'll cancel Transit City for a subway expansion, but they don't have a concrete plan like Thomson or Smitherman. In any case, none of the present proposals seem doable (except Pantalone) with the given funding scheme for each one!

 

[valkoholic]

Thomson all the way. Not for her subway plan, but for having the guts to propose a way to pay for it. Smitherman's funding plan was patronizing and pathetic.

It shouldn't be a matter of which plan is the best, a true leader would admit they're not an expert and that Toronto has a terrible history of transit plans drawn by mayors. Let metrolinx plan the lines, the political debate should be about funding.

 

[Rainforest]

I would like to think he's playing politics on this one. If you believe that a Yonge line extension, which already has $600M invested into its pre-requisites, will force the DRL on the city; then campaigning for a DRL is a bad idea since that is exactly and all you will get.

If he proposes a different package there is a chance he will get 50% of that other package and be forced to take the DRL.

The best compromise is when you are forced to accept things you always wanted and have to give up something you don't care about.

Very good point.

 

[kEiThZ]

I think we should wait until all the candidates come out with their complete transit plans before voting. Both Rocco Rossi and Rob Ford just said they'll cancel Transit City for a subway expansion, but they don't have a concrete plan like Thomson or Smitherman. In any case, none of the present proposals seem doable (except Pantalone) with the given funding scheme for each one!

How is Pantalone's plan any more doable than the rest? He is saying that $8.15 billion will buy the SELRT, the short FWLRT, the Eglinton LRT and the SRT refurbishment and extension. Colour me sceptical.

Just because he's got the incumbent plan doesn't mean it's any more feasible. If he's going to jump up and down and say the rest are not feasible, I'd like to know what makes his plan so special. I'd like to see his funding strategy.

The way I see it right now; the province is paying the tab. If you know how much money the province has in the piggy bank then you can have a plan that's feasible. If you don't then you can't really be sure whether your plan is feasible or not. Does Joe know how much Dalton is willing to pay for? If he does, I'd like to know.

 

[kEiThZ]

I would like to think he's playing politics on this one. If you believe that a Yonge line extension, which already has $600M invested into its pre-requisites, will force the DRL on the city; then campaigning for a DRL is a bad idea since that is exactly and all you will get.

If he proposes a different package there is a chance he will get 50% of that other package and be forced to take the DRL.


The best compromise is when you are forced to accept things you always wanted and have to give up something you don't care about.

It seems obvious to me that's exactly what he's doing. He'll make the Yonge line conditional on the DRL. This is why he's not even proposing a short Yonge extension (say to Steeles). He wants to force the province's hand on this. Good move, I think.

 

[nfitz]

I went with Smitherman. Unlike his opponents, his plan acknowledges parts of Transit City that are beyond the point of no return, and generally improves on the overall project. Unfortunately, funding remains a serious question...

Transit City is beyond the point of no return, and Smitherman isn't?

Smitherman proposed a $1-billion subway extension that the last time it was studied had a peak ridership of only 700 people per hour. The same $1-billion could be used to build most of the Don Mills LRT! The man is not thinking his platform through clearly!

 

[gweed123]

Transit City is beyond the point of no return, and Smitherman isn't?

Smitherman proposed a $1-billion subway extension that the last time it was studied had a peak ridership of only 700 people per hour. The same $1-billion could be used to build most of the Don Mills LRT! The man is not thinking his platform through clearly!

You mean the same Don Mills LRT that you yourself admitted would be over capacity south of Eglinton? I agree that Sherway should not be an immediate priority, but neither should the Don Mills LRT, especially considering that it should only be ever built north of Eglinton. South of Eglinton should be the DRL, anything else is a stop-gap measure and a waste of money.

 

[Fresh Start]

You mean the same Don Mills LRT that you yourself admitted would be over capacity south of Eglinton? I agree that Sherway should not be an immediate priority, but neither should the Don Mills LRT, especially considering that it should only be ever built north of Eglinton. South of Eglinton should be the DRL, anything else is a stop-gap measure and a waste of money.

There you go. That's the phrase I was looking for... stop-gap measure. Build an Eglinton LRT that will be at-capacity by 2031 and overcapacity by 2051. That's what some people have mistaken for a sound investment and good value for money. I don't care what the TTC or its supporters profess to know in regards to ridership projections. Vancouver’s new transit line, which connects downtown to the airport and beyond, is already moving up to 100,000 passengers a day, which is the break-even threshold for the system covering its operating costs. That level comes years ahead of schedule. The Globe and Mail reports that the “Canada Line daily ridership breaks 100,000 occasionally, average at 92,852 including weekends!” Just some background information, the 100 000 ridership mark was “a unreasonable projection” from many critics, but they have been obviously proven wrong. This shows how successful frequent and quick rail rapid transit is in Vancouver. Why can't the same unexpected ridership boom not occur across the Eglinton corridor?

Density is a 'red herring'. You build before the masses come or else pay through the nose like they are now in New York at over a Billion Dollars per KM. In 1945 City Council voted to build Subways over more Streetcar routes because we were choking on traffic with the return of our soldiers and increasing development. Our politicians were not as stupid as they are now. The big question is why? Subways are a long term investment although in the case of the Sheppard Stubway the pay back has already been realized. $1B cost result $2B development = tax revenues and job creation. The facts need to be published and the light rail propoganda machine closed down. That nfitz thinks Don Mills LRT should be a top-priority at this point in time speaks volumes about their credibility.

 

[Dan416]

Know this is going to bring everything off topic, but why is it so stupid? I mean we all have different visions for it, and while I'd like to see it with less stops it will still be an improvement for travelling across north Scarborough.

Why? Um, well, let me introduce you to a form of rapid transit that already exists on Sheppard. It's called the Sheppard Subway. Now explain to me why a subway line that was never finished should stay that way and have LRT east of it and force even more transfers on people? Who is the SELRT helping anyway?

And sorry for saying the SELRT is the stupidst project on the books right now. It's tied with the SRT being replaced by an LRT instead of just building the damn Danforth subway two more stops to hit Scarborough Town Centre. (Especially since LRT would require buses during construction, whereas a subway on an entirely new alignment could be done with no shutdowns).

 

[Rainforest]

That nfitz thinks Don Mills LRT should be a top-priority at this point in time speaks volumes about their credibility.

Let's be fair: nfitz did not say that Don Mills LRT should be higher priority than DRL, nor that it should run south of Eglinton instead of DRL.

He said that Don Mills LRT would be a better use of funds than subway to Sherway, and this is certainly true.

You can say that northern Don Mills LRT makes little sense without DRL; but since we are talking about long-term plans anyway, DRL still can pop up to the leading position in the queue if the political desicion is made.

 

[js97]

How many of you actually wait for a handout from your relatives/work/friends before making a large purchase such as a house or a new car , instead of planning ahead, saving,/mortgaging

Yes Rossi's plan might take 30 years, but that's based on NO funding from province/feds... if ANY funding is received, that timeline is drastically shortened.

Sarah thompsons plan? my inital rough calculations would cost approx 1150 dollars per car per year (5/day*5 days a week * 46 weeks)... you think that's something that will be easily absorbed by drivers? and that's assuming ALL drivers adhere to the current plan and no costs to maintaining/building the tolls. Yes she has the idea, but her plan is a tad bit overzealous and unrealistic.


It's unfortunate that politics divides such great ideas.... if you take Rossi's independant style of self-financing , supplement with a MODEST form of tolling by Thompsons , and partner with provincial/fed levels, and also with private sectors (if they are willing to build 20 portapoties at 400k a pop) we would have an amazing subway system!

 

[js97]

Can i also say that to a certain extent, this poll really cements what every political guru has been telling me regarding elections. Most voters are not that analytical enough to look at real numbers, they prefer rhetoric.

Rossi is the only candidate that has a track record of leaving reputable institutions in better financial positions when he left (Molson, Heart and Stroke foundation, and recently, tripling the federal liberal's coffers).
Sarah thompson - credibility, within one organization (her own)
Ford - again, same, credibiility within one organization (family)
Smitherman - well... that's up for discussion
Pantalone - do we need to look at our city finances?

 

[nfitz]

You mean the same Don Mills LRT that you yourself admitted would be over capacity south of Eglinton?

That's the one! Are there other Don Mills LRTs under discussion? I thought you were up to speed on this! The money involved could be be used to build the Don Mills LRT from Steeles to Eglinton, with enough left over to complete the Sheppard East LRT and to build a link to the Aquatic centre. Or it could be used to build the Finch LRT now ... which Metrolinx estimated would cost $900-million from Keele to Humber.

Any of these would be a better use of $1-billion.

Or we could use that $1-billion to start the DRL. The DRL from Danforth to Eglinton would cost about $1.5 billion. From Danforth to Yonge would be about $2 billion.

We could build the first leg of the DRL (from Yonge to Danforth) with what Smitherman has proposed be spent on the Sherway extension and the Sheppard-Downsview extension.