Second_in_pie
Senior Member
Elaborate?
|
|
|
Candidates and their subway plans... The Star tells you which one is more credible
- Thread starter Ansem
- Start date
Rainforest
Senior Member
Too bad it is first-by-the-post.
Would be better to run a second round to decide between the two candidates with highest scores, if nobody got > 50% in the first round.
Would be better to run a second round to decide between the two candidates with highest scores, if nobody got > 50% in the first round.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Sarah Thomson is the most realistic, but is unlikely to win or even come close to that.
And each of the front-runners feeds too much BS.
Fresh Start
Banned
I agree. Maybe Smitherman should inform Thomson on how she can get access to that $17 billion.
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
Ah, I see. I think that Sarah Thompson would actually make a great mayor. Not just for her Transit Plan, but I think she's got a real vision for the city. It's problems, solutions, and possibilities.
Dan416
Senior Member
I think Thomson's transit plan is doable. And I like that she acknowledges that we need new sources of revenue to build transit. Smitherman is a better known name though, and I'd be 100% fine with him winning. Plus it'd be nice to have a gay mayor of Toronto.
kEiThZ
Superstar
To be fair though, all their plans come down to how much the province is willing to pitch in. Even Thomson's (though arguably hers lends itself to a city-funded incremental approach more easily). Even finishing the rest of Transit City (and it's ridiculous that Pantalone still thinks it will only cost $8 billion) will be dependent on provincial funding. So it's really hard to debate which one is more feasible without knowing what the province will pay for.
And this is where things get complicated. I don't think, what the province will pay for, is a firm number. Like the Sorbara subway, I think it'll be driven by political decisions. For example, if Toronto wants a subway to Steeles, it'll have to take it to Richmond Hill. If we want an extension to Sherway, the province may insist we take the subway into Mississauga. The province will pay more, if there's more votes to be had from where the subway is heading. I actually think, that even if the Conservatives came to power, they'd still play this game. Nothing would win the party in power more votes than bringing the subway to the suburbs. And I can easily see, even the supposedly anti-transit Conservatives jumping on the subway bandwagon to buy votes.
In such a scenario, the best mayor would be the one who can play hardball with the province to extract the most concessions for Toronto. Want a Mississauga subway? Give us a subway to STC first. Want a Richmond Hill subway? Give us a DRL first. Want us to integrate fares with the 905? Give us Eglinton.
And this is where things get complicated. I don't think, what the province will pay for, is a firm number. Like the Sorbara subway, I think it'll be driven by political decisions. For example, if Toronto wants a subway to Steeles, it'll have to take it to Richmond Hill. If we want an extension to Sherway, the province may insist we take the subway into Mississauga. The province will pay more, if there's more votes to be had from where the subway is heading. I actually think, that even if the Conservatives came to power, they'd still play this game. Nothing would win the party in power more votes than bringing the subway to the suburbs. And I can easily see, even the supposedly anti-transit Conservatives jumping on the subway bandwagon to buy votes.
In such a scenario, the best mayor would be the one who can play hardball with the province to extract the most concessions for Toronto. Want a Mississauga subway? Give us a subway to STC first. Want a Richmond Hill subway? Give us a DRL first. Want us to integrate fares with the 905? Give us Eglinton.
nfitz
Superstar
I haven't been paying attention to Pantalone. Can you clarify? He thinks the rest of the unfunded Transit City is only $8-billion? In 2010 dollars? I'm not even sure it would be that much - much of the heavy lifting has been done. Or does that includie the Metrolinx Phase 2 2015 to 2020 stuff. Or does that include the entire project ... which obviously it can't ...
kEiThZ
Superstar
I stand slightly corrected. From the article it's 8.15 billion for Sheppard East, Finch West, the SRT and Eglinton. Still unrealistic.
Mapleson
Active Member
Sarah Thomson's plan is unrealistic. Her plan reflects need, but not funding. The TTC is partially in the trouble is it because paying for continuing operating costs is neglected. If she were to refine her platform to realistic costs and recovery rates, I would support her.
Rocco Rossi's plan is short sighted. I'm going to sell Asset A to pay for Asset B and use money supposed to pay for Asset B to pay for Asset C. However, Asset A could have paid for Asset C though annual profits. If he were to not sell profit-making assets and instead deticated funding to infrastructure and debt reduction, I'd vote for him.
Joe Pantalone's plan is status quo. If you liked TransitCity last year, you'll like Joe's plan next year. If he adjusted to the Metrolinx endorsed changes, my support would depend on if he's going to chip in for any identified projects that could be started with funding.
George Smitherman's plan is expensive. Seven billion in funding from Toronto and it doesn't include a DRL. He currently has my vote, but I'd like it if he'd at least include the DRL on paper.
Rob Ford's plan is typical of Rob Ford. All bluster and no substance to back it up makes for good sound-bites, but poor mayors. If he came up with a creditable plan, I'd be suprised.
Ranking (high to low): Smitherman, Pantalone, Thomson, Rossi, Ford
Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence.
I find it highly unlikely John Tory will run. He has stated on Jan 7, he will not and his son (John Tory Jr.) is Sarah Thomson's campaign manager.
Rocco Rossi's plan is short sighted. I'm going to sell Asset A to pay for Asset B and use money supposed to pay for Asset B to pay for Asset C. However, Asset A could have paid for Asset C though annual profits. If he were to not sell profit-making assets and instead deticated funding to infrastructure and debt reduction, I'd vote for him.
Joe Pantalone's plan is status quo. If you liked TransitCity last year, you'll like Joe's plan next year. If he adjusted to the Metrolinx endorsed changes, my support would depend on if he's going to chip in for any identified projects that could be started with funding.
George Smitherman's plan is expensive. Seven billion in funding from Toronto and it doesn't include a DRL. He currently has my vote, but I'd like it if he'd at least include the DRL on paper.
Rob Ford's plan is typical of Rob Ford. All bluster and no substance to back it up makes for good sound-bites, but poor mayors. If he came up with a creditable plan, I'd be suprised.
Ranking (high to low): Smitherman, Pantalone, Thomson, Rossi, Ford
Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence.
I find it highly unlikely John Tory will run. He has stated on Jan 7, he will not and his son (John Tory Jr.) is Sarah Thomson's campaign manager.
Last edited:
rbt
Senior Member
I would like to think he's playing politics on this one. If you believe that a Yonge line extension, which already has $600M invested into its pre-requisites, will force the DRL on the city; then campaigning for a DRL is a bad idea since that is exactly and all you will get.
If he proposes a different package there is a chance he will get 50% of that other package and be forced to take the DRL.
The best compromise is when you are forced to accept things you always wanted and have to give up something you don't care about.
Electrify
Senior Member
I went with Smitherman. Unlike his opponents, his plan acknowledges parts of Transit City that are beyond the point of no return, and generally improves on the overall project. Unfortunately, funding remains a serious question...
Sarah Thomson's plan is also very good, and looks to alternative methods of funding. With our extensive commuter rail system reaching virtually all corners of the GTA, and less than an hour travel from the furthest rapid transit station with parking to downtown, there is no reason why we don't have rush hour tolls, or at least extra taxes for downtown parking. Cities like Ottawa, Calgary, and Vancouver have parking levies, and their systems are far less extensive than Toronto's. Unfortunately, her plan also calls for canceling the Sheppard LRT. While it is easy to critisize the line, I'd rather see it go through at this point than scrap it and start at square one.
Sarah Thomson's plan is also very good, and looks to alternative methods of funding. With our extensive commuter rail system reaching virtually all corners of the GTA, and less than an hour travel from the furthest rapid transit station with parking to downtown, there is no reason why we don't have rush hour tolls, or at least extra taxes for downtown parking. Cities like Ottawa, Calgary, and Vancouver have parking levies, and their systems are far less extensive than Toronto's. Unfortunately, her plan also calls for canceling the Sheppard LRT. While it is easy to critisize the line, I'd rather see it go through at this point than scrap it and start at square one.
Dan416
Senior Member
The SELRT is the stupidest project on the books right now, and I applaud Thomson for wanting to cancel it.
uptownto
New Member
I picked Smitherman too. I really like the Sheppard west extension now that it's a given that the Spadina line is going to York U and beyond. I think it will make the Sheppard line a lot more attractive to potential new riders (and hopefully less of a money loser as a result) and will distribute the load more evenly instead of just dumping everyone on the Yonge line, as well as link the line to the Wilson train yard. Another bonus is it wouldn't need much in terms of stations. Yonge-Sheppard is already good to go, Downsview would need some adjustments, and add a station at Bathurst.
The extension to Sherway I'm indifferent about. I don't think it will perform as badly as some think (every other current terminal does well), but I think it will sell politically in Etobicoke. SRT should just be a subway and will gain Scarborough's support. And the fact that he doesn't want to derail (pardon the pun) the funded portions of Transit City is also good in my mind.
And I think people make a big deal about these extensions being unfunded. Remember, Transit City was a plan that was originally unfunded too.
As much as I like Sarah Thomson's vision, her plan is too ambitious and $5 tolls won't win her much support in the burbs at this time. If she kept the LRT lines as originally planned and just added the DRL with a perhaps smaller toll to just cover the unfunded DRL her plan would go further politically.
The extension to Sherway I'm indifferent about. I don't think it will perform as badly as some think (every other current terminal does well), but I think it will sell politically in Etobicoke. SRT should just be a subway and will gain Scarborough's support. And the fact that he doesn't want to derail (pardon the pun) the funded portions of Transit City is also good in my mind.
And I think people make a big deal about these extensions being unfunded. Remember, Transit City was a plan that was originally unfunded too.
As much as I like Sarah Thomson's vision, her plan is too ambitious and $5 tolls won't win her much support in the burbs at this time. If she kept the LRT lines as originally planned and just added the DRL with a perhaps smaller toll to just cover the unfunded DRL her plan would go further politically.
Dan416
Senior Member
As far as I know, no subway in Toronto is a money-loser and Sheppard is performing quite well, thank you very much. Although if you're expecting Bloor-Danforth numbers from a stubway that'll never happen. Extensions will only help Sheppard's ridership to be sure. Sheppard should be taken west to Downsview and east to Scarborough City Centre in the mid-term. In the long-term, I don't know how far Sheppard would really need to go. Downsview to SCC is fine as the ultimate length of the Sheppard line in my opinion.