Brampton Transit/Zum

[taal]

Weren't the Xcelsior buses were in use in Winnipeg before they were in Brampton? A while back I saw a promo video for them which looked like they were in revenue service there, but that may have just been for demonstration purposes (since New Flyer is based out there).

I think that the TTC could learn a thing or two from Zum and Viva and implement better seats and a more visible look on their higher order services (subway, ICTS, express buses). While it may just be marketing, I don't see any downside to improving the attractiveness of these services.

It's really not fair to judge, you haven't seen any of our new subway cars / streetcars which I'm sure will have that 'new' look like these express services throughout the GTA.

And regarding express buses - you have to remember we really don't have express buses in this sense - they're typically ordinary buses on normal routes that skip all but the major stops.

And really, if we were to create a more luxury experience - I'd have to jump on the Ford bandwagon and start demading cuts at the TTC level The TTC problem is a lack of service on most of it's major routes during rush i.e. standing room only - none of this helps. All this flash lacks substance - it's there to attract, if this serivece was on the TTC it would be standing room only (actually like some Viva blue busses during rush and maybe this eventually) once it gets to this point people don't care for looks anymore - either they're not going to be willing to stand (which is likely) or they will - or, probably a lot more common for the TTC they have no choice .

So in summary, no, the TTC should not implement this service at all - on the 'new' high order routes bringing in new technology sure some flash like this is fine, they might as well. But money should be spent on making service more reliable / frequent where it's required / saving for capital projects.

 

[jwill]

I think the TTC would do well to import some of the 'bells and whistles' from Zum and Viva. Things like spacious shelters, next bus displays, queue jump lanes, heated shelters, ticket machines, etc. could go a long way to making for a better experience on crowded ttc bus routes. I'd hardly call it a luxury experience, really just trying to cut down on the most hellish aspects of taking the bus. Nobody should have to wait in the cold with no idea when the bus will arrive on major routes in Toronto.

 

[taal]

I think the TTC would do well to import some of the 'bells and whistles' from Zum and Viva. Things like spacious shelters, next bus displays, queue jump lanes, heated shelters, ticket machines, etc. could go a long way to making for a better experience on crowded ttc bus routes. I'd hardly call it a luxury experience, really just trying to cut down on the most hellish aspects of taking the bus. Nobody should have to wait in the cold with no idea when the bus will arrive on major routes in Toronto.

This is all in the plan - times are already rolling out on streetcar stops - the txt messaging service is enabled for most streetcar routes - so it'll happening, slowly. It's harder though - in the above case they're building it into a new system - so the new shelters will have this - the TTC doesn't have this luxury yet ... but it will for the new TC routes (if they materialize).

I think a valid argument is St. Clair - this line should have had some of these (next time) built it, but consider how long ago it was all planned ...

Honestly, to me (other then in the new TC stops) heated bus shelters are a luxury and a waste of money for all stops throughout - and yes I take the bus a lot so it'd be nice.

Moreover, the whole next stop is a cool idea and yes eventually it should be everywhere - but in reality i'd argue the merit of it on most of the TTC's routes on main arteries - during rush service is typically 5 min or better (less bunching) and even if it's worse what exactly do you plan on doing. Again, eventually, but focus on the important stuff first - of course a way to notify customers about large delays on bus routes (for whatever reason) is useful i.e. next finch (36) bus in 10/15min [which is a huge delay for finch] and would result in massive bunching and crowds at the stop (yes it happens) - maybe some would think of other routes / walk / get a ride ...

Even on the Brampton route (isn't that 15min or better live Viva most of them I think?) it's debatable - I think the 15/30 min range might have more use.

 

[doady]

Is the riding the TTC buses so "hellish"? I guess that explains why people like W. K. Lis compare the TTC's bus system to Detroit's. With such attitudes towards buses, I don't think any amount "bells and whistles" will matter.

And Brampton is half the size of Mississauga. Mississauga had some minor service cuts over the last few years, so yes, I stand by my "most improved" comment, even if only because 6 years ago, BT was a joke.

"Most improved" means just that.

Sorry I have no problem with saying BT is is the most improved, but saying it is the most improved by far, that is somewhat disputable. Sorry didn't mean to start an argument. It is nothing against you guys, mostly against a certain express bus-obsessed SSP forumer from Scarbrough who is using Brampton's service increases as an excuse to bash the rest of 905 transit incessantly...

You could say that Milton Transit is the most improved though... it did go from not existing to existing after all...

York Region is a lot bigger than Brampton or Mississauga, so this would seem to suggest that it has lagged compared to those two.

Well, it is even more than that because that is just budgeted increases I listed and YRT cut back added service in 2008 and 2009 in half compared to the budget, and likely some cuts in 2006 and 2007 as well. Partly because of the recession, but also because ridership never reaches expectations (Mississauga's cuts in 2009 have already been accounted for).

York Region serves the largest area, but Mississauga has highest population so you could say Mississauga has lagged behind also. Maybe that's partly why it seems many people insist that Mississauga has the worst system of the three and is improving the least...

 

[jwill]

Yes, I would say taking the bus is 'hellish'. Nobody wants to stand in the cold every morning wondering when their bus will arrive, only to end up standing the whole trip while the bus lurches back and forth. My point is that the TTC could make the whole thing more pleasant, and without buying a new bus or paying a new driver's salary, by rolling out the "bells and whistles".

I don't think it should be the number one priority, but buses are the worst (but arguably most important) service operated by the TTC, and it would be nice to improve the network. If we can renovate the worst subway stations, why not renovate the busiest bus stops?

 

[ShonTron]

York Region serves the largest area, but Mississauga has highest population so you could say Mississauga has lagged behind also. Maybe that's partly why it seems many people insist that Mississauga has the worst system of the three and is improving the least...

No, York has a larger population than Mississauga by about 200,000-250,000 persons.

 

[doady]

No, York has a larger population than Mississauga by about 200,000-250,000 persons.

Oh I see... I didn't know that...

Yes, I would say taking the bus is 'hellish'. Nobody wants to stand in the cold every morning wondering when their bus will arrive, only to end up standing the whole trip while the bus lurches back and forth.

I don't see how any of this is unique to the bus.

The real reason the TTC bus system sucks is the fact that it mostly use the Orion 7. Brampton's use of New Flyer for Zum alone already makes it a better experience than taking the TTC bus. But that's just my opinion.

That's the sort of thing the TTC should concentrate on. How many hundreds of buses did they receive before they finally fix the seating arrangement of the Orion 7s? It is pathetic.

Things like next bus displays and heated shelters don't mean anything, not in Toronto where wait times are minimal. How useful are the wait time displays at the subway stations, really? If the wait times are long, you have to wonder if the ridership is high enough to justify such extravagence. Probably not.

 

[Colvis]

I was reading something earlier in this thread about the Zum service not being up to par and I must say I somewhat agree. After coming back from a job interview at Queen and 410, I took the Zum to see what it looked like. First off, the bus stop does not have any seats, the next bus display was off and the bus was 20 minutes late... To add insult to injury, 3 buses came at once and followed each other right to the Downtown terminal. I don't know if the drivers are still getting used to it or what, but this Rapid transit wasn't so rapid today. This has happened to me since the "serive changes" were implemented earlier this month.

This is why I love the TTC compared to Brampton.. Most of their buses/trains are on time, or come every 5-15 minutes. Brampton Transit/Zum has a decent schedule, however the drivers don't seem to follow them.

 

[Tuscani01]

I was reading something earlier in this thread about the Zum service not being up to par and I must say I somewhat agree. After coming back from a job interview at Queen and 410, I took the Zum to see what it looked like. First off, the bus stop does not have any seats, the next bus display was off and the bus was 20 minutes late... To add insult to injury, 3 buses came at once and followed each other right to the Downtown terminal. I don't know if the drivers are still getting used to it or what, but this Rapid transit wasn't so rapid today. This has happened to me since the "serive changes" were implemented earlier this month.

This is why I love the TTC compared to Brampton.. Most of their buses/trains are on time, or come every 5-15 minutes. Brampton Transit/Zum has a decent schedule, however the drivers don't seem to follow them.

TTC buses are on time? Try using a busy line like Eglinton. Buses bunch up and are never on time. The schedules are useless. Even the streetcars are never on time.

 

[TOareaFan]

I was reading something earlier in this thread about the Zum service not being up to par and I must say I somewhat agree. After coming back from a job interview at Queen and 410, I took the Zum to see what it looked like. First off, the bus stop does not have any seats, the next bus display was off and the bus was 20 minutes late... To add insult to injury, 3 buses came at once and followed each other right to the Downtown terminal. I don't know if the drivers are still getting used to it or what, but this Rapid transit wasn't so rapid today. This has happened to me since the "serive changes" were implemented earlier this month.

This is why I love the TTC compared to Brampton.. Most of their buses/trains are on time, or come every 5-15 minutes. Brampton Transit/Zum has a decent schedule, however the drivers don't seem to follow them.

There are people on here who know a lot more about transit scheduling than I do but I will take a shot here.

The bus you were expecting was 20 minutes late...then 3 arrived at the same time....I am gonna guess there was some sort of traffic "issue" upstream from where you were....and all the buses got "through it" at the same time.

Unfortunately, any mass transit that operates in mixed traffic is succeptable to this issue....the degree to which it occurs varies but it can not be eliminated.

Sounds like your first Zum experience came on a bad day (like trying out a new restaraunt when half the staff calls in sick!)....do yourself and them a favour and give the service a couple of more tries before you condem it totaly

 

[Colvis]

Haha. I'm not giving up hope on it, I was just dissapointed. Especially with Queen street rennovated, i was expecting quick service. I'm sure it will come around though, but during my 6 years living in Brampton I always find buses arrive opposite of the sceduled time that I see on the pamphlet.

And yes, I do find TTC buses generally to be on time.. As I go to Toronto a few times every month, I find the service to be quick and efficient. I couldn't care less about the looks. Routes I usually take are: 85B, 58, 36, 38, 29, 106, 6, and the Kennedy bus (forgot number) all these routes are generally consistent. Then again I don't live in Toronto so you're probably right Tuscani.

 

[doady]

I was reading something earlier in this thread about the Zum service not being up to par and I must say I somewhat agree. After coming back from a job interview at Queen and 410, I took the Zum to see what it looked like. First off, the bus stop does not have any seats, the next bus display was off and the bus was 20 minutes late... To add insult to injury, 3 buses came at once and followed each other right to the Downtown terminal. I don't know if the drivers are still getting used to it or what, but this Rapid transit wasn't so rapid today. This has happened to me since the "serive changes" were implemented earlier this month.

This is why I love the TTC compared to Brampton.. Most of their buses/trains are on time, or come every 5-15 minutes. Brampton Transit/Zum has a decent schedule, however the drivers don't seem to follow them.

It is not that the drivers don't want to follow the schedules, it is more the schedule is impossible for drivers to follow. It sounds like maybe the schedules are too optimistic about the speed of the buses under the current conditions. Giving more time for buses to layover would help a lot too.

 

[TOareaFan]

The early numbers on Zum look pretty positive!

bramptonguardian.com/news/cityhall/article/901690--zum#Comments

 

[ShonTron]

I read the article. Indeed, it is looking good.

I had November 11 off. After attending a local ceremony, I went to York U and took a midday Zum bus into Brampton. The ridership was impressive in both directions; and finally, some of the next bus displays at the Zum stops in Brampton are working; most of the larger Zum shelters now have benches and other street furniture installed. The ridership itself looks more like that on the TTC too; there's a more diverse cross-section of riders, including maybe even some choice riders.

What one can learn from Brampton is that while focusing on BRT-lite is great, refusing to neglect the rest of the system is what is key to boosting ridership.

 

[doady]

Comparing to 2009 numbers is probably extremely misleading considering the recession in 2009. Wouldn't 2008 be a better comparison? Also it doesn't make sense to combine in the 2010 numbers of months before and after Zum together when comparing to 2009. The months before Zum (Jan-Sept) probably be compared separately of the month after Zum (October).

If you go the BT web page with the stats, you see that October 2010 was not the month with highest increase compared to the same month in 2009 (+13.3%). The months of March (14.1%), August (+19.3%), and September (+14.6%) all saw the better improvement in ridership compared to 2009 than October did.