Boxing Day Shooting

[EnviroTO]

Huh? Baggy pants don't kill people.

Black skin does?

Well we're not a melting pot, different communities based on race, religion, nationality, etc. do exist and that's not about to change any time soon.

I'm not advocating a melting pot. Black and White are not a cultural groups, nor are they religious groups, nor are they countries... they are skin pigmentation levels. French, Spanish, Italian, Russian, Berber, Arab, Yoruba, Jamaican, etc are cultural groups... Black is a skin colour. I think if we all replaced "Black" in our vocabulary of describing Black people with "dark skin pigmentation" we would be better off in that we would see how trivial a fact it really is.

Who are "these youth" you're talking about? See, even you have identified them as a particular group.

This whole thread is focused on people with similar characteristics committing crime. People are hung up on the fact they have dark skin and might come from Jamaica. I am debating that jumping up and down about those two similarities above all others is misguided. Why is it a "Black" issue or a "Jamaican" issue and not a "baggy pant wearer", a "50 cent listener" issue, a "jewelery wearing man" issue, a "lack of moral compass" issue, a "poverty" issue, a "family support" issue, etc... why focus on skin pigmentation and nationality when there are so many other properties that these people may share in common. It is all the facts that solve the problem, not simply the most visible ones.

Social phenomena within certain identifiable groups are studied all the time in sociology.

Any sociology study which only goes skin deep is weak in my opinion. I feel no more violent with a dark tan than I do pasty white. What is the value of a study which shows yellow vehicles pollute more if it misses the point that yellow might be the more common colour for vehicles with lower fuel efficiency such as V8 sports cars, hummers, and large trucks? The real issue would be the engine characteristics... not the colour of the vehicle.

 

[EnviroTO]

Of course your skin pigmentation plays a role. If you look black, you will experience racism. You're probably more likely to be confronted by black gang members or pressured to join a gang. You're less likely to have a good education and have a good job because your parents were also less likely to have them. People are less blatantly racist now but the effects of institutionalized prejudice from generations ago still linger.

Hence the reason I said...

If race has anything to do with these crimes it would have something to do with the racism or stereotypes they face growing up and the stereotypes and negative role models that they see around them in their community and in media. That wouldn't make it a Black issue since these issues could surface in any community under similar conditions.

 

[EnviroTO]

I do find it strange that some people that have no issue calling the problem a Black issue have such a problem with me stating:

White leaders reacted when a white person was shot in an area frequented by well-off white people.

The statement is factual eventhough it puts too much emphasis on "White" and "well-off" which is my entire point about putting too much emphasis on "Black" or "Jamaican".

 

[adma]

Huh? Baggy pants don't kill people.

They can, if they make you stumble and trip and a car hits you or something

 

[Observer Walt]

I think the comments by TOinSF are perceptive and completely on. The city reacted so strongly to this situation because of where and when it happened. Most of us don't hang out in parking lots at Jane/Finch, or so-called after-hours clubs at 4am., where so many of these shootings seem to happen. However, most of us could visualize ourselves walking down Yonge St. at 5 pm. and could easily see ourselves having been in that situation with bullets flying around us. The threat level to the general population (read: "me") was ratcheted up, regardless of statistics.

It is a pretty cheap shot for some "leaders" to be suggesting now that the outrage is only because the victim was white. Remember that her identity and all details were withheld for two days. During this time there was considerable public outrage, and we did not know anything about her other than she was a teenager. She could have been black, Chinese, or whatever. The outrage resulted from the circumstances of her killing, and the perceived new threat to all of us.

 

[SD2]

It is a pretty cheap shot for some "leaders" to be suggesting now that the outrage is only because the victim was white. Remember that her identity and all details were withheld for two days. During this time there was considerable public outrage, and we did not know anything about her other than she was a teenager. She could have been black, Chinese, or whatever. The outrage resulted from the circumstances of her killing, and the perceived new threat to all of us.

Was it? I know I can't say for sure, but race is certainly a factor in all of this. People assumed the shooters were black from the moment it was reported and many are still assuming they're all Jamaican.

There were many shootings this year just as bad as this, if not worse, yet none of them had the enduring response this one does...the vigil continues to grow. This is of course a good response, but why wasn't there similar outrage for the other victims? Some say the time and place, but there were shooting deaths at Dundas Square in the summer which got the usual heavy media coverage and then dissipated quickly.

I have to say EnviroTO is expressing things just about perfectly.

 

[miketoronto]

Actually a guy on the news last night said an interesting thing.

This girl and just 5 of the other shootings or something where innocent people.

The rest where all known criminals. So the guy on the news said thats 55(or whatever the number was) less criminals to have to worry about.

 

[TdotTrickyRicky]

I think the fact that the victom was a) female b) a teenager c) white d) middle-class all play a role in how the public reacted to the event. I don't think one can deny this. But while interesting fodder for discussions on racial and cultural relations this is largely irrelevent and even disruptive to the dialogue on reducing gun violence. If people are enraged for a brief moment no matter what the nature of their motivation to engage an issue outside of their robotic middle-class existance then one shred of positive can be salvaged from an otherwise senseless and tragic event.

 

[ganjavih]

Let me give an example of why race cannot be ignored wrt this issue. Let's say we acknowledge that gun violence has become a problem particularly amongst young black males in Toronto. The next thing we'll want to know is why. Let's say researchers find that blacks have a particularly hard time finding employment or are discriminated against in schools or they find some other reason why they may feel marginalised from the rest of society. Only then can we do something intelligent to tackle the problem.

 

[alklay]

No offence EnviroTO but your arguments are just illogical and wrong (with the most respect).

"This whole thread is focused on people with similar characteristics committing crime."

- I am just repeating what is already a known fact: a disproportionate amount of this crime is coming from "people with similar characteristics." If you do not admit this fact, you will never, ever solve the problem. What are you afraid of? Black leaders are not afraid of this fact. In fact, Stephnie Paine, black and the school trustee for the Jane Finch area is strongly in favour of race based stats on school issues such as marks, crime, drop-outs etc. She knows perfectly well what they will show and that some in the city will point and say, "see, those blacks are dumb and they commit crime." She also understands that such an incorrect interreptation is the price you pay for information that will lead to solutions.

You may be more afraid of what certain people will do with this information than the information itself and that is fine. But the information has to be discussed and known for a solution to be developed.


"People are hung up on the fact they have dark skin and might come from Jamaica. I am debating that jumping up and down about those two similarities above all others is misguided. Why is it a "Black" issue or a "Jamaican" issue and not a "baggy pant wearer", a "50 cent listener" issue, a "jewelery wearing man" issue, a "lack of moral compass" issue, a "poverty" issue, a "family support" issue, etc..."

- Because there are not a high percentage of 'baggy pant wearers, 50 cent listeners, jewelery waring man, lack of moral compass issue or poverty issue' people committing these crimes. Most people who wear baggy pants or listen to 50 or even are poor are not committing these gun crimes. The fact that the criminals all have hair and wear shoes does not mean that people with hair and that wear shoes have a problem. You are incorrectly analyzing the stats.

"It is all the facts that solve the problem, not simply the most visible ones."

- You seem fixated on the visible properties of this group when in fact everybody else is talking about a particular social and cultural group.

 

[EnviroTO]

EnviroTO but your arguments are just illogical and wrong

I will obviously say I disagree and I think you either didn't read my posts or you yourself are illogical and wrong.

I am just repeating what is already a known fact: a disproportionate amount of this crime is coming from "people with similar characteristics." If you do not admit this fact, you will never, ever solve the problem.

Focusing on ALL the characteristics and ALL the facts including poverty, family background, role models, etc is the road to the solution... not focusing on the fact they are Black and Jamaican.

Black leaders are not afraid of this fact. In fact, Stephnie Paine, black and the school trustee for the Jane Finch area is strongly in favour of race based stats on school issues such as marks, crime, drop-outs etc.

And a Scarborough councillor, Michael Thompson, suggested random searches of black men. Black people aren't automatically right because they are black.

She knows perfectly well what they will show and that some in the city will point and say, "see, those blacks are dumb and they commit crime." She also understands that such an incorrect interreptation is the price you pay for information that will lead to solutions.

Collecting facts is a part of finding a solution but it is a very shallow and useless study if the focus stops at skin colour and nationality. Skin colour and nationality are only two characteristics of individuals and alone have nothing to do with anything. It is only in a bigger picture with skin colour, nationality, history, family, etc, etc that such a fact has any meaning at all.

You may be more afraid of what certain people will do with this information than the information itself and that is fine. But the information has to be discussed and known for a solution to be developed.

If the headline is going to be "Black People Can't Do Math" or "Black People Commit Crime" you are simply creating a bigger problem, not working towards a solution. If the headline is "Minorities Who Feel Marginalized and Have No Hope Don't Care About Math" or something that doesn't say to people that skin-pigmentation and mental capacity are linked free of other considerations then I have no problem with that. My problem is that this should not be considered a "Black" or "Jamaican" issue.

Most people who wear baggy pants or listen to 50 or even are poor are not committing these gun crimes. The fact that the criminals all have hair and wear shoes does not mean that people with hair and that wear shoes have a problem. You are incorrectly analyzing the stats.

Close to 200,000 Black Jamaicans live in the GTA area and it is only a fraction of these that are committing crimes. Jamaicans have a long history of not committing crime and being great contributors to the Canadian fabric. Lincoln Alexander was Jamaican and Black but was federal Minister of Labour and Lieutenant Governor. I think we need to focus on the big picture, not Black and Jamaican.

You seem fixated on the visible properties of this group when in fact everybody else is talking about a particular social and cultural group.

No... my posts started from the posting stating:

From my perspective the central issue here, brought tragically and glaringly to my attention with the boxing day shooting (whether that makes me racist or not I do not know) is that it is overwhelmingly clear that the escalating problem of gun violence in Toronto is being perpetrated to an inordinate degree by one specific ethno-cultural demographic of men, and yet nobody - not the media, not our elected officials, and most importantly not our community leaders (Whether such community is perceived to actually exist or not) - is willing to acknowledge this.

This is a visual observation of the features of these individuals that some people are saying should be trumpeted. Ethno-cultural demographic means Race and Culture. What is the point of trumpeting in the media or having a politician stand up and say "HEY TORONTO, THE CRIMINALS ARE BLACK JAMAICANS" when they are two facts that do not directly relate to the problem on their own without trumpeting all the other facts that play a part in the lives of these individuals. Many Jamaican Canadian's wake up in Toronto and feel no urge to go and shoot someone. We need to study all the factors that cause these people to commit gun crimes and skin-pigmentation and nation of origin are useless stats on their own... the big picture includes many more factors. As I stated...

If race has anything to do with these crimes it would have something to do with the racism or stereotypes they face growing up and the stereotypes and negative role models that they see around them in their community and in media. That wouldn't make it a Black issue since these issues could surface in any community under similar conditions.

If you disagree and think that being Black and Jamaican are the primary reasons they are committing crimes... perhaps you thing a Black Jamaican gene triggers violent behaviour... then go ahead and think my arguments are illogical. Otherwise read my posts again.

 

[EnviroTO]

Let me give an example of why race cannot be ignored wrt this issue. Let's say we acknowledge that gun violence has become a problem particularly amongst young black males in Toronto. The next thing we'll want to know is why. Let's say researchers find that blacks have a particularly hard time finding employment or are discriminated against in schools or they find some other reason why they may feel marginalised from the rest of society. Only then can we do something intelligent to tackle the problem.

I agree. But the real contributing factor in this case would be "having a hard time finding a job", "discrimination", and "marginalization"... that doesn't sound like a Black problem... that is a societal problem... it isn't Black people who are discriminating against them, marginalizing them, and making it hard to find a job... it would be the rest of society doing that to them. Black is a statistic and I think it is important for government to track and for sociologist to analyze, but it isn't important for media to announce and for leaders to verbalize by itself. By finding the real problems of "having a hard time finding a job", "discrimination", and "marginalization" we can have a solution to solve the problem in many ethnic communities if similar problems arise... if we make it a "black problem" we deny that it could happen in other groups and I think that is a mistake. We are all human with similar drives and thought processes... if we can figure out the real reasons a youth can be lured into a gang it can be applied to Tamil gangs, Black gangs, Asian gangs, and Al Qaida.

 

[Torscarb]

I nominate EnviroTO for PC person of the year.

 

[miketoronto]

You guys can be as PC as you want.
But "having a hard time finding a job", "discrimination", and "marginalization" is no excuse for murder.

We gotta cut all this nice talk here, and get to the bottom of the problem.

Countless other nationalities and groups of people in this city had trouble when they first immigrated to Canada. And yet they did not murder.
We have to just admit there is a problem, and its not having a hard time finding a job.
Its more to do with a culture that promotes that its cool to be a gangster, etc.

 

[EnviroTO]

I nominate EnviroTO for PC person of the year.

It's not about being politically correct. It is about creating an environment where Black Jamaican's are not stereotyped so that Black Jamaicans feel that they are equal members of society with equal opportunities. These stereotypes reduce their freedoms and right to equal opportunity. A Black Jamaican who has always been a good member of society shouldn't have to deal with people coming the other way down the sidewalk crossing the street for their safety or police spot checks aimed only at them.

But "having a hard time finding a job", "discrimination", and "marginalization" is no excuse for murder.

Nothing is an excuse for murder. There are contributing factors but that doesn't make it an excuse. At the end a person must take responsibility for the crimes they commit.

Countless other nationalities and groups of people in this city had trouble when they first immigrated to Canada. And yet they did not murder.

Countless Jamaicans have had trouble when they first immigrated to Canada and did not commit murder either. One of the biggest crime organizations in North America, a much larger organization than any of these small neighbourhood gangs, was Italian. So what is your point?

We have to just admit there is a problem, and its not having a hard time finding a job.

Everyone admits there is a problem. Having a hard time finding a job may or may not be a contributing factor.

Its more to do with a culture that promotes that its cool to be a gangster, etc.

That is also a contributing factor but whose culture promotes that it is cool to be a gangster? That culture isn't Jamaican culture or Carribean Island culture anymore than Mafia is Italian culture. "Gangsta" culture promotes that it is cool to be a gangster. How did "gangsta" culture get to Canada? Did "gangsta" culture immigrate from Jamaica or did it come across the TV, the movies, the music, etc. from America? It's not your culture to be in the Mafia... it would be your choice. The factors that would lead you to want to join the Mafia are the real issue. Sure, being Italian would play into it somehow but an Italian doesn't wake up one morning and say "holy crap, I'm Italian, I better join the Mafia today". A choice always exists and we need to understand all the reasons people make the choice. To stop the violence we need to stop people from joining gangs. Joining a gang is a choice. Gangs can be white, black, asian, etc... it doesn't matter... the people that make the choice to join the gang are the issue and any factor that leads to that decision must be examined.