Boxing Day Shooting

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Tdot:

The example of St. Lawrence market might work, but perhaps only because there are a majority of private units in the project...On a whole I think the idea of dedicated public housing is a failed one.

But what is "dedicated public housing" anyways? If you say "housing project" geared towards only one socioeconomic class, I would agree with you - but if you are talking about specific buildings, then I couldn't disagree more.

But this housing should be transitional, never permanent.

The view that government housing should be housing of last resort is also ideological - in the Netherlands, among other places, the government actually works very closely with the private sector to provide public housing, and it's even considered desirable to many middle class individuals.

AoD

 

[adma]

The Leslieville debate

 

[TdotTrickyRicky]

"The view that government housing should be housing of last resort is also ideological"

Probably. But at any rate the public housing projects of relevence to this discussion are the disfunctional projects of the past where poverty is becoming entrenched for generations. What can be done with them? I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the at risk youth and gang elements are products of city owned and managed social housing projects. I mention this only since it is another piece in the puzzle of what to do about this form of criminal element. This would mean that on the one hand the city is trying to say it wants to deal with gun violence and gangs, and on the other it is the one that has the power do improve conditions, or re-think it's position on the housing projects that spawn them.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Tdot:

Housing isn't the solution to the problem, IMO - depending on the form, it has the capacity to erode or enhance other factors that drives and deters criminal activity (social isolation vs. sense of community; dead space vs. eyes on the street, etc). Tearing those buildings down should be a long term goal given their design deficiencies, but one shouldn't hope to expect that to end the problem - it will just go elsewhere.

AoD

 

[adma]

Maybe it was the masthead word "architect" accompanying that pic of the Rev. Eugene Rivers in yesterday's Toronto Star but...

I do sort of see a resemblance there...

 

[TdotTrickyRicky]

"Tearing those buildings down should be a long term goal given their design deficiencies, but one shouldn't hope to expect that to end the problem - it will just go elsewhere."

Perhaps, but this would imply then that the problem is the people and that the people are problematic in isolation of the environment they exist in. I don't mean to suggest that this is your position (I assume it is opposite), but this is the very same argument used to push for disengagement, isolationism and "tough on crime" measures.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Tdot:

Actually, I do intend it to imply the problem is mainly people and sociogenic, and not housing-based per se. So yes, if one is ideologically inclined to, they can use it push for all those measures you've mentioned (whether they'd be effective is another matter). Personally, I'd rather argue for a stronger sense of community, sense of belonging and economic stablity instead.

AoD

 

[buildup]

Toronto is STILL the safest major city on the continent, if not the planet.

Sometimes I wonder. Are we safer than the major cities of Europe, Japan, India, Middle East (excluding Bagdad)? Certainly South/Central America and Africa are rough but its worth questionning our assumptions.

 

[ganjavih]

Boxing Day shooting started over a hat

HAYLEY MICK

The Boxing Day shooting that killed a Toronto teen occurred because one gang member knocked off a rival gang member's hat, Toronto's police chief says.

"Two rival groups came together over a relatively minor show of disrespect," Chief Bill Blair told reporters yesterday.

Fifteen-year-old Jane Creba was killed and six other people were injured when bullets hit a crowd of shoppers on Yonge Street.

Two men have been charged in the shooting, although no charges have been laid in Jane's death.

 

[tudararms]

How does Dundas Square thrive, or any city square for that matter, when its very raison d'etre is to be a place for people to gather and just hang out, and yet when those very same such gatherings are proving to be such a recipe for disaster. I mean, nobody here really believes that Boxing Day will be the last such incident of its kind here, do they?? With milling crowds in good weather isn't it all the more likely that we'll see more of these incidents? I honestly don't know what the solution is. Who knows, maybe there truly isn't one? Shame though.

 

[dan e 1980]

a stupid hat is worth a life.

i think the youth should be bombarded with propaganda that gangsterism is pussyish. stick it in their heads that it is the ultimate un-cool. thuggery is just a shell that hides a little insecure little girl on the inside.

 

[SD2]

How does Dundas Square thrive, or any city square for that matter, when its very raison d'etre is to be a place for people to gather and just hang out, and yet when those very same such gatherings are proving to be such a recipe for disaster. I mean, nobody here really believes that Boxing Day will be the last such incident of its kind here, do they?? With milling crowds in good weather isn't it all the more likely that we'll see more of these incidents? I honestly don't know what the solution is. Who knows, maybe there truly isn't one? Shame though.

Such incidents are always more likely in areas with a lot of people. That doesn't mean such areas should be discouraged; these kinds of crimes start much earlier than when they actually occur.

 

[dan e 1980]

these kinds of crimes start much earlier than when they actually occur.

get rid of the moisture and the mold won't grow.

 

[tudararms]

True, but ultimately people have to feel safe for it to work.

 

[TdotTrickyRicky]

"Sometimes I wonder. Are we safer than the major cities of Europe, Japan, India, Middle East (excluding Bagdad)? Certainly South/Central America and Africa are rough but its worth questionning our assumptions."

On this specific issue (shootings) we cannot assume we are safer than other major cities to be honest. Large cities in east asian and places like Cairo in Egypt etc. have much lower homocide rates. But I would say that Toronto is one of the safest feeling places (although some would beg to differ because of the shabby-ness of some of our streetscapes). Cities in advanced nations like the US and western europe have far more signs of petty theft and non-life-threatening assaults. I would say the US is moving forward on the issue of crime (once near bombed out cities are becoming more livable), while Western europe is actually moving backwards (once safe cities are becoming more menacing).