Boxing Day Shooting

[AlvinofDiaspar]

tudararms:

I think you attributed far too much weight to the "culture of denial and defensiveness". Think about it - when someone in the "black" community (something the media love to refer to, but doesn't really exist as a unitary entity on the basis of skin colour) involves in criminal activity, they don't say - I am black, therefore I must do this, and this, and this; you've also overplayed the influence of the community leaders - like honestly, if they were that influential, there wouldn't have been shootings in the first place - afterall, I don't recall any of them advocating violence. The problem isn't community stonewalling - I'd argue it's because there isn't a community at all, and that gangsterism is a crude attempt at creating that missing bond in that vacuum.

Oh on that matter, let's put forth the flip side of the denial argument - how many are willing to admit - yes, the black community suffers disproportionately from poverty, prejudice and that society as a whole have the responsiblity to do more than just talk and criticize? I am not saying individuals shouldn't take responsiblity for what they've done - but I seem to detect an underlying current whereby one simplifies a complex issue to perceived problems at the community level alone.

AoD

 

[dan e 1980]

black community leaders are already denying and deflecting by asserting that the city is racist in only reacting to the murder of a white girl.

there are soo many factors involved with the attention given to the murder...

- it happened in "downtown canada" in the middle of everything. it didn't happen in some dark alley.

- it happened on boxing day, the busiest shopping day of the year - in the busiest shopping district in the city.

- it happened right in the middle of an election campagin, a very tight one - it's the media that's keeping the issue alive and it's only during election time that anything gets looked at.

it wouldn't matter if it was a black or a white girl. toronto doesn't suffer from "pretty white girl syndrome".

jane's parents are probably going through some harsh emotional times, they're probaly fighting some racial thoughts going through their heads and having some community leaders cause a fuss because their daughter got too much attention doesn't help. i'm sure jane didn't want to be famous this way.

these community leaders should stop relying on "white guilt" to try to solve their community problems. if they are leaders in their communities, they are not doing a good job.


they could have easily said "why did they wait untill election time to focus on the issue?"

i'm sick and tired of the racism that is happening here. just because someones skin tone is not black doesn't mean that they are living the good life and that they get special attention all the time.

had this all happened in the U.S, yes, i could agree that white victims get more attention down there but this isn't the U.S.

 

[alklay]

I have to disagree with AoD.

First, some context. I am a white professional male who has worked in the Jane Finch community for the past 7 years on a strictly volunteer basis and apart from my professional job. A few of us white guys run a mentoring program in the area. I know a close circle of about 30 male youth ages 11-21 very well, and I know others in the community from community leaders to just members of my guys' families. I have visited my guys in jail, I have sat at the bedside of gun victims, I have gone to baby showers (loved being the only white guy) and award ceremonies and I have advocated for many in the schools. I have experienced a lot more than most balding white guys who grew up in Thornhill, have ever experienced in this city. I must admit that I have deep affection for the guys I have grown to know during the last few years and I am incredibly richer for them being a part of my life. I could go on and on and on, but you get the picture.

Of the 12 guys that I started with in the mentoring program, none have their fathers around. Half do not know where their fathers are and half do not care. This, more than anything, is the foundation for most of the problems, whether it be poverty, lack of integration or poor social skills (ie, violence).

Poverty is not the cause: many recent and not so recent immigrants have suffered from poverty in even worse forms and never resorted to this degree of violence. It may be a contributing factor but its not a cause. I would say the same thing about racism (heck, the Italians and Jews suffered far greater systematic and institutional racism at the beginning of the last century in this city).

"Experts' say that the kids join gangs to feel part of a family. If that is the case, it is because they have no families, just single moms who are barely able to cope financially and emotionally with teenage males. The moms and kids have been abandoned by the dads, emotionally and financially and all the government programs, tougher gun laws and anti-racism programs will do little to solve this reality.

The kids are not joining gangs because there is no 'black community', because of police racism or because they are not teaching black history in high schools (I have to laugh, to prevent from crying when I hear someone advocate the teaching of 'black history' in high schools, the idea of seperate schools or any other form of segregation. The lack of integration is a huge problem and this too must be addressed...but not by teaching kids that 'the blacks built the pyramids.').

And denial is a big problem. No offence, but where are the black men my age? Why are they not mentoring their youth so there is no need for me to be there? Why are they not supporting their own kids and families. Why is this hardly talked about?

There is stonewalling and denial as long as the chief cause of this decay in youth is not addressed. These kids need fathers and families (emotionally and financially). Think about this next time you see someone complain about 'government not doing enough.'

 

[dan e 1980]

the fact that the community leaders have expressed that "the only reason that this is a big deal is because it was a white girl" has ensured that NOTHING will probably be done because if the police or government act on this situation they will be accused of racial bias.

with the elections soo close, this was a perfect time to discuss action in relation to gun crime since election time is the only time anyone actually listens.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"black community leaders are already denying and deflecting by asserting that the city is racist in only reacting to the murder of a white girl."

I only found out it was a white girl about two days after the shooting - it had made international headlines by then because the Toronto media went apeshit within hours on Boxing Day. They went nuts not because she was white but because 7 people were shot at Toronto's busiest shopping destination on the busiest shopping day of the year.

 

[blixa442]

black community leaders are already denying and deflecting by asserting that the city is racist in only reacting to the murder of a white girl.

In some ways I agree with this statement, but for different reasons than what this group is proposing. For the most part I have very little in common with the black community. I listen to Miles Davis, love Richard Pryor, and have a few black coworkers but that's more or less it. At the end of the day I'm just a white guy born in Europe who lives at Bay & Davenport. I lead a self-centred life... I have money, I travel, I'm married to a beautiful white woman. I think of myself as Canadian, they on the other hand think of themselves as 'African-Canadians'. Perhaps I just might be racist, but only subconciously... I see a 15-year old middle class white girl getting her head blown off at one of the city's busiest spots for no appearent reason and I react. That could have been me... That could have been anyone. It only makes sense to have this kind of reaction when a member of your demographic gets attacked on your doorstep... I don't feel happy when a black gangster gets his head blown off, but I don't get angry. It's all part of the game. But in this case I do feel angry, because the line has been crossed. That's just how I feel... If that's what passes for racism then I certainly don't mean it, but it seems that I'm not the only one feeling this way.

 

[alklay]

That is very well put.

 

[SD2]

In some ways I agree with this statement, but for different reasons than what this group is proposing. For the most part I have very little in common with the black community. I listen to Miles Davis, love Richard Pryor, and have a few black coworkers but that's more or less it. At the end of the day I'm just a white guy born in Europe who lives at Bay & Davenport. I lead a self-centred life... I have money, I travel, I'm married to a beautiful white woman. I think of myself as Canadian, they on the other hand think of themselves as 'African-Canadians'. Perhaps I just might be racist, but only subconciously... I see a 15-year old middle class white girl getting her head blown off at one of the city's busiest spots for no appearent reason and I react. That could have been me... That could have been anyone. It only makes sense to have this kind of reaction when a member of your demographic gets attacked on your doorstep... I don't feel happy when a black gangster gets his head blown off, but I don't get angry. It's all part of the game. But in this case I do feel angry, because the line has been crossed. That's just how I feel... If that's what passes for racism then I certainly don't mean it, but it seems that I'm not the only one feeling this way.

Wow...that was quite brave of you to say and very well put. Would it be fair to say that any victim outside of your demographic would illicit a lesser response? That's what I've generally noticed...and while most who feel this way probably aren't actively racist, it's an unfortuante way of thinking that society as a whole has to deal with.

 

[fiendishlibrarian]

alklay, since you seem to have unique knowledge of what's going on given your experience, I want to ask you the flip side of the fatherlessness issue you addressed: why do so many black girls have so many kids with these guys? I've heard theories, but what's been your experience? If there are so few men around, and since many of these women have to hold down two jobs at times, then why do they do it? I don't want to open a race debate here, but it's hard to ignore the pattern when you see so many of these girls with kids in tow at these funerals.

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

Would it be fair to say that any victim outside of your demographic would illicit a lesser response? That's what I've generally noticed...and while most who feel this way probably aren't actively racist, it's an unfortuante way of thinking that society as a whole has to deal with.

Is it really that surprising though? A good way of looking at it is if someone in your family dies. Your going to deeply affected by it because it is someone who is so close and connected to you, even if it just a grandparent who has died naturally and peacefully because of old age. But would you expect anyone outside your immediate friends and family to have the same feelings? They might feel some sympathy but to expect them to feel the same pain and sorrow would be foolish.

The same is true for however one defines their life. If community is really important to you than someone dying in yor neighborhood might have an impact on you. But maybe your neighbor, who doesnt really care that much about where he lives and just likes his house and his comfy little individual life, isnt going to be impacted at all. Does that make him a bad person because he doesnt share the same connection to his neighborhood that others might?

This same idea can be applied to whatever nation you live in, whatever race or culture you identify with, even whether you care more about people dying in car accidents rather than pedestrians being killed. Everybody divides and subdivides their life into neat little hierarchies and categories that define who and how and what they relate with.

Im no different. While Blixa may identify with a more classic definition of Canadian and have his own feelings about how feels when different people are killed, so do I. Mine are different. Truthfully, when tragedy strikes a pampered, upper class, pretty white girl, I could car less. But when a young black male is killed by gang violence, I actually do care. Not because I have connection with black culture per say, or because I idolize the thug life, but because I could care less about the upper class and care much more about the lower class, the marginalized, those who have been disadvantaged through no actions of there own.

Sure everyone should care equally about everyone in a perfect ideal world, offering the same love and compassion to any person no matter there race, religion, creed, nationality or whatever category you want to put them in. But, we are human, and we form bonds and connections with those we feel we have the most in common with. And its also true that most people, who are humans, who are, still animals, are going to be by nature more interested in their own survival than others. Its human nature.

 

[fiendishlibrarian]

First of all, how do you know she was "pampered"? And even if she was, was that her fault? Does that make her death any more justifiable? If she was black and her parents were professionals, would that change your view? If you believe that so strongly, why don't you go down there and lay a card at her memorial, saying:

Dear Jane,

You were clearly rich and pampered. I don't care that you died. Spare a thought for the guy who killed you instead. He may have grown up poor. Or maybe not.

Cheers, and long live the revolution,

antiloop

A thug that gets killed in a gang dispute deserves no pity, I don't care how poor he grew up. Most poor people don't pick up guns and kill people at random over drug turf, so I don't know why you would identify with such a person unless you're not telling us something about how you make a living. As to whether the victim is poor or not, it doesn't concern me at all. It's called empathy. I felt just as badly for that black girl shot on the Jane bus as I did for the girl on Yonge, not because of who they are or where they grew up, but because both suffered needlessly and should have felt safe in public spaces. Sympathy to thugs is misguided as they couldn't care less if it's you or me that gets killed in the crossfire. Bullets are not class conscious.

 

[TdotTrickyRicky]

"Oh on that matter, let's put forth the flip side of the denial argument - how many are willing to admit - yes, the black community suffers disproportionately from poverty, prejudice and that society as a whole have the responsiblity to do more than just talk and criticize?"

I think most people these days realize the added hardships facing young black youth and that we have to work on these issues collectively. But in the end the onus is on black people of whatever community to step up to the plate and prove the naysayers wrong. Until they do, no level of support or realization of collective responsibility matters, because prejudice is reinforced with every new generation. Most ethnic communities have taken on the challenge of prejudice by staking out claims in niches offered by society, be it trades, academics, business etc. The world is not a fair place, but there are avenues of attack where hard work and determination can beat prejudice every time. Perhaps the problem is that their IS no Black community to create a kernel around which others can feed off and prosper, so that others can stand on the shoulders of the previous generation and aquire the skills and accomplishments to dispell prejudice. I've said it before, as a visible minority you have to be better than your "white" collegue to be on an equal footing in this country, that is the truth even today and the challenge that too many in the Black community are unwilling to take.

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

fiendish:

Im not saying that every white girl who is pretty must be pampered. Im sure if I wanted to find out, I could learn lots of details about a victims life, but I dont. In this case, I learned that the girl who was shot was white yesterday from reading a post on this forum. In this case, Im not saying the act wasnt sad and that this victim somehow does or doesnt get my sympathy because he/she was or wasnt a certain colour or social status.

Yet, am I somehow inclined to fall in line with most everyone else and express anger and outrage over this crime? This crime was a random, senseless, mindless act of violence against a totally innocent person who did nothing to provoke it and unfortunately happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Her killer, who was brazen enough to kill someone in the middle of the day on a crowded street, is quite possibley, a very tiny portion of society that functions with total disregard to the his own life and to the life of others. I understand why Torontonians may be hard hit by this, but myself, I really find it hard to see this as little more than a small, unpredictable, random part of life. People die being struck by lightning, having a tree fall on them, SARS, terrorist attacks, any number of totally random and unpredicatable events. When I see this story and this crime, thats how I view it, as just one of those uncontrollable things in life that may be tragic, but nothing can be done to stop, no matter how progressive and caring and compassionate and perfect a society is.

I am also not stating that every single gang killing deserves sympathy. Many are little more than stupid, macho shows of agression to further the acceptance of the other members of the gang. But, there are many cases of mistaken identity, youth who really have no idea what there getting into, and some killings that are little more than executions. And yes, many do, under full understanding walk into these situations. But how many youth really understand what they are falling into? Turn on MuchMusic and see how gang culture is glorified, packaged and sold as a consumer item. And after kids watch these videos, are they going to see or hear about the real stories of gang culture? Are they going to hear a discussion about how the images they see are a total fabrication of the reality of gang life? No. Once a year you get a sock puppet who hosts a grand total of 1 hour where you actually get to hear some semi intelligent comments about the videos that are being shown. And thats it. Whether its music, clothes, video games, mansions, jewelry, whatever, a lot of youth grow up in a society where its ok to capitalize and make money and consume gang culture, yet, without rarely talking about why the culture came to be, what problems caused and are a result of it, and showing people the stark difference that exist between the gangs on TV and in mass marketing and those that exist in the cities. Yes if your lucky enough you can go to a school where you have teachers who are willing to go that extra bit and help reach out to youth and help educate them about issues such as these, but many dont get that chance. And how many of these are falling into those when they are what, 14, 13, maybe even younger? Is it far to expect someone that age to be able to have a full understanding of all the ramifications of their actions in a society that likes to contradict itself all the time?

Again, Im not sympathetic to all gang members or those in lower classes, but what do you think might happen to a teenager raised in middle suburbia in Markham enjoy a rather privileged life who was instead raised at Jane and Finch? Same person, different environment. I think its quite possible that his life would be much different, and in part, simply because of chance. I just find it unfair that many of the people who are living in those situations have had no say in being choose how they grew up, yet, so many in society like to punish them and accuse them of having somehow done wrong and cast all people under the umbrella instead of making some very important distinctions.

 

[bizorky]

I understand why Torontonians may be hard hit by this, but myself, I really find it hard to see this as little more than a small, unpredictable, random part of life. People die being struck by lightning, having a tree fall on them, SARS, terrorist attacks, any number of totally random and unpredicatable events. When I see this story and this crime, thats how I view it, as just one of those uncontrollable things in life that may be tragic, but nothing can be done to stop, no matter how progressive and caring and compassionate and perfect a society is.

If people want to avoid being struck by lightning, there are some things that can be done to avoid this from happening. A little knowledge of trees and their environment can help an individual avoid having one fall upon them. Though SARS was quite scary, the ongoing efforts to understand disease helped to stop it fom killing more people. Terrorism has root causes that, once uncovered, can make the acts more comprehensible.

Trying to uncover what lies beneath the apparent randomness to many events is one thing that seperates human beings from other forms of life. We strive to distinguish random from order, and spend considerable time and effort looking to see whether random events are actually random or chaotic to begin with. To say that nothing can be done about crime or violent crime is a phrase that is being uttered in the absence of knowledge of its causes. Can nothing be done to stop such a crime? Can nothing be done to reduce the incidence of such crimes? We won't know as a society until we start to look with a little more effort and clarity.

Sure, life is tragic to a degree, if one wants to hold that point of view. And yes, there is randomness in daily events for many different reasons, including the fact that there are things that can be understood that have yet to be explored, so they remain random-looking at a casual glance. To throw ones hands up in the air and say it's all random, uncontrollable and tragic is an easy out, and just may be the right recipe to allow things to go down hill.

 

[alklay]

fiendishlibrarian, with reference to your question as to why the girls put themselves in that situation (namely getting pregnant at young ages with irresponsible guys who they know will not support them or that do not presently have the means to support them), that is something I have not been able to figure out.

Yes, it takes two to tango and yes, why aren't the girls on the pill/saying no/telling the guys to put on condoms? I really have no idea as my experience in the area is with the guys. I get the sense though that there are not a lot of mothers telling their daughters to avoid getting themselves in this mess (which is odd) and that its totally socially respectable, if not encouraged, to be a young mother. In fact, some of the guys joke that if a girl is not pushing a baby around by the time they are 18, something is wrong.

Beyond those trite observations, I really cannot explain why the girls let themselves get into the position of mothering unsupported children.