Toronto Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport | ?m | ?s | Ports Toronto | Arup

BuildTO said:
e4aiws:

How do you find the noise - esp. of Porter planes vs. others?
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The Porter planes are clearly noisier than most of the planes operating out of the TCCA. There are some smaller private-type planes that are noisier, but very few. I don't understand all this talk about how the Porter planes are quiter than all the other planes. I mean you are talking 90 seaters vs. 2 seaters! Perhaps the reaction is that for the size of the plane, you'd expect them to be noisier.

Furthermore, you do not hear the smaller planes taxiing. But, you can clearly hear the Porter planes taxiing. If you live on the south side of Queen's Quay in any building south of Queen's Quay, you will hear the sound of a Porter plane taxiing if you have your window open. If Porter expands to 20 planes, then you'll hear the sound of a Porter plane taxiing for greater than 50% of the time.

Again, the purpose of my post is to inform everyone that many residents I have talked to have said they will move out if Porter expands to 20 planes. That's it. OK, maybe they are all crazy. Maybe I'm crazy. I probably am crazy! But...if you are concerned about real estate values, then perhaps a bit of due diligence regarding Porter might be warranted.

And by the way, of all the residents I spoke with, NONE made the comment that they felt it was an asset to have the airport so close (i.e. the convenience of using it.)
 
I've stated my own opinions on this issue here so I won't drag that out again.

Late this summer I was visiting my folks & longtime friends of my parent's stopped by for a drink. They've lived at Harbour Square on the lake side for some 20+ years so I brought up the Island airport for discussion. They're rather ambivalent about the airport which surprised me and frankly disappointed me because it wasn't what I wanted to hear and they had little interest in engaging much conversation about it. They're happy there, they aren't bothered by any plane noise nor seemed troubled by future airport expansion. They noted how the area has grown and improved in the last decade and they seemed pleased about that.
 
It is Matrix, yes, and sure I guess it isn't as close as Harbour Square. It's not far, though, and I walk down to the water all the time. I also know people who live in that Erickson building right across from the airport. They have no complaints. My point is simply that I deal with GO Trains, sirens, streetcars (astonishingly loud considering the distance), SkyDome fans screaming, and none of it affects me in any way. Modern condo units are extremely well sound-proofed. Beyond that, I don't really mind a little noise -- if I wanted silence, downtown Toronto is the last place I'd live.

I do find it more than a little unlikely that a third of your building suddenly wants to sell. Aside from pointing out the fact that the fight over the airport has been going on for years, and that the airport itself has been there long before any condos, it doesn't really mesh with all the condos that are advertising their proximity to the airport. Maybe you guys will all sell and find many other people happy to take your units since they are such a short trip to the airport. Moreover, when many of those condos were first built, Air Ontario and others were operating flights with much older and noisier Dash-8s and 7s.
 
I have no comprehension how anyone who buys a condo overlooking a major airport can have the gall to complain about aircraft noise! That airport has been there since the 1930s, and there have never been any serious plans to eliminate it. In the last election, it was made perfectly clear by the misguided individuals that tried to get rid of it in 2003 that they had made a mistake, and that they weren't going to fight that battle again.

Given that the airport is there, and isn't going anywhere, increasing commercial traffic into it is excellent for Toronto. Every flight in and out reduces a lot taxi and car traffic from the Airport downtown. People flying into meeting from other cities can get downtown within minutes - this makes downtown Toronto competive again versus 905 for major meetings, etc. The airport itself is very stress-free and relaxed compared to Pearson.

And personally, I've stood outside at the airport meeting visitors flying in and out, and it's hardly that loud even standing on the island. I've also been in the Music Garden with flights coming in and out. The noise is barely noticeable if your listening for it. If your not, then the street traffic and general rumble from the Gardiner is far more noticeable.

Perhaps if all who don't like the airport are leaving, then we could see a decent Pearson-like people-mover constructed from the airport to meet the Queen Quay streetcar.

And quite frankly, the comments that 1/3 of people are moving out because of this are just laughable. Wouldn't this imply that condo prices are collapsing? Perhaps someone there could tell me how much condo prices have dropped since Porter started service?
 
nfitz said:
I have no comprehension how anyone who buys a condo overlooking a major airport can have the gall to complain about aircraft noise! That airport has been there since the 1930s, and there have never been any serious plans to eliminate it.
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It isn't a "major airport" and a restriction on no jet aircraft and runway expansion has been in place for a while. It is like saying people living on Residential Court shouldn't complain about a whole bunch of transport trucks suddenly showing up on their street because Residential Court was there before their house did, and some other vehicles like Harley Davidsons are louder than transport trucks. The existence of something first or existence of something else worse does not change the fact that something is changing in a way that was not expected. A no jet rule, the prevention of extending the runway, and the non-existence of prop-aircraft larger than a Dash 8 seating 37 at the time would have put condo purchasers at ease that aircraft seating twice as many would not show up. It may be possible to get some A380 like STOL prop aircraft developed some 100 years from now... but it should hardly be expected by new condo purchasers on the harbourfront. Most people had written the prop with greater than 45 seats off with the boom of the RJs.
 
EnviroTO said:
It isn't a "major airport" and a restriction on no jet aircraft and runway expansion has been in place for a while. It is like saying people living on Residential Court shouldn't complain about a whole bunch of transport trucks suddenly showing up on their street because Residential Court was there before their house did, and some other vehicles like Harley Davidsons are louder than transport trucks. The existence of something first or existence of something else worse does not change the fact that something is changing in a way that was not expected. A no jet rule, the prevention of extending the runway, and the non-existence of prop-aircraft larger than a Dash 8 seating 37 at the time would have put condo purchasers at ease that aircraft seating twice as many would not show up. It may be possible to get some A380 like STOL prop aircraft developed some 100 years from now... but it should hardly be expected by new condo purchasers on the harbourfront. Most people had written the prop with greater than 45 seats off with the boom of the RJs.
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Still, isn't it somewhat of sticking your head in the sand to assume that something will stay the way it is forever, especially in a business as volatile as the airline industry?

Real Estate agents bear some responsibility if they misrepresent the affect that it will have, but isn't it the buyer's responsibility to consider a worse case scenario?
 
Porter update: I flew in to TO with Porter last night and the trend of increasing numbers of passengers continues. The flights now seem to be 1/2 to 2/3 full whereas some of the early flights I took were less than 1/3 full. Flights to Newark are to begin in early 2008.
 
Sweet! I haven't used Porter yet but I'm looking forward to the day that I do. What a fantastic addition to the downtown area! It will be great once it starts serving US cities on the east coast.
 
Flew my first Porter flights this week. The service was great and the flights (to Ottawa) included wine, so can't go wrong with that.

I will continue to use Porter until there is a fast rail link from downtown to the airport. But after that, I think the Island should be purged of the airport and transformed into Toronto's great urban park.
 
It isn't a "major airport" and a restriction on no jet aircraft and runway expansion has been in place for a while. It is like saying people living on Residential Court shouldn't complain about a whole bunch of transport trucks suddenly showing up on their street because Residential Court was there before their house did, and some other vehicles like Harley Davidsons are louder than transport trucks.
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That's not true. It's like buying a house next to railway tracks and then complaining that more trains now use it. You still bought next to railway tracks. You should expect train noise.

I completely agree, nfitz. I'm right down at the edge of the lake all the time, and the planes just aren't that loud. If they were going to redevelop the airport with, say, the old Harbour City project, I would say "Do it!" in a heartbeat. If the airport will just be abandoned to a slow death with weeds eventually pushing up through the runways, why not let it be used by a successful airline?
 
Anyone who buys near an aiport of any size and doesn't think the possibility of airline expansion or changes in technology may effect them is living with their head in the sand.

"When I was a caveman I enjoyed the silence and outdoors of Toronto. I can't believe someone had the audasity to build all these damn buildings and invent these cars, etc. 1/3 of all the cavemen I've spoken to have decided to sell there cave and move north!"

Please, the planes aren't that bad, noise wise. And they are actually quieter, proven fact, then many of the smaller planes, regardless of seating capacity.

I would love to see the Island airport close and become parkland, but with the exception of a few residents, an overzealous mayor, and some NIMBYS no one cares about this issue.

We can't seem to get things going on waterfront park transformation in the areas that are not airports and yet we spend time complaining about an airport at the edge of the islands, that has been there for years, is not that busy and never will be due to external factors, with an airline that will probably be gone in a few years anyways.

Get a grip! Waterfront condo prices are quite safe and nothing Porter does, short of crashing into these condos will change this. I personally think the waterfront condos are more of a blight on our waterfront park system then the airport ever will be. Nothing should ever be built south of QQ unless it is public park use.
 
nfitz said:
I have no comprehension how anyone who buys a condo overlooking a major airport can have the gall to complain about aircraft noise! That airport has been there since the 1930s, and there have never been any serious plans to eliminate it. In the last election, it was made perfectly clear by the misguided individuals that tried to get rid of it in 2003 that they had made a mistake, and that they weren't going to fight that battle again.

Given that the airport is there, and isn't going anywhere, increasing commercial traffic into it is excellent for Toronto. Every flight in and out reduces a lot taxi and car traffic from the Airport downtown. People flying into meeting from other cities can get downtown within minutes - this makes downtown Toronto competive again versus 905 for major meetings, etc. The airport itself is very stress-free and relaxed compared to Pearson.

And personally, I've stood outside at the airport meeting visitors flying in and out, and it's hardly that loud even standing on the island. I've also been in the Music Garden with flights coming in and out. The noise is barely noticeable if your listening for it. If your not, then the street traffic and general rumble from the Gardiner is far more noticeable.

Perhaps if all who don't like the airport are leaving, then we could see a decent Pearson-like people-mover constructed from the airport to meet the Queen Quay streetcar.

And quite frankly, the comments that 1/3 of people are moving out because of this are just laughable. Wouldn't this imply that condo prices are collapsing? Perhaps someone there could tell me how much condo prices have dropped since Porter started service?
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Well, I did not complain about the noise. I simply stated that I don't like it and thus I am moving out. Got it? I am leaving and not complaining. I just wanted to make a point that I've talked to numerous residents who don't like it. In fact, I spoke to two more residents today that also stated that they did not like Porter. So...yes, there are people out there that 100% disagree with you on Porter and the waterfront. OK. Deal with it! But it ain't so bad...you guys win and we lose. So don't get all riled up!

On the issue of condo prices in my building...yes, they have gone up since Porter started operations. But, they are only operating 4 planes currently and thus the noise isn't that frequent. If they expand to 20 planes, that is another story. We'll see what happens. Maybe there will be no effect. But I simply wanted to state that some due diligence perhaps should be done on Porter before buying on the waterfront. If one-third of the residents I speak to don't like it....well, that might be a factor to consider.

And yes, I should have anticipated that a commercial airline might start up on TCCA and be very successful. I screwed up big-time. But not all is lost- I made good money on the place and have learned a valuable lesson.

Someone made a point that those who don't like Porter will move out and will be replaced by residents who don't mind it. I think that is 100% true. We'll likely get that type of transistion.
 
If noise is not the issue, then what is? I don't get it. It's not like any of the condos are anywhere near the flight-path - so crashes are not an issue (as opposed to my house near Woodbine!)

And it's not like Porter is anything new - there's always been passenger service to the airport, except for that short period after Jazz was thrown-out - but that was part of the original Porter announcement. There has been talk for years, even decades, of one airline or another coming to the Island and expanding service to US cities, etc.
 
nfitz said:
If noise is not the issue, then what is? I don't get it. It's not like any of the condos are anywhere near the flight-path - so crashes are not an issue (as opposed to my house near Woodbine!)

And it's not like Porter is anything new - there's always been passenger service to the airport, except for that short period after Jazz was thrown-out - but that was part of the original Porter announcement. There has been talk for years, even decades, of one airline or another coming to the Island and expanding service to US cities, etc.
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Nfitz,

Noise is the issue for me. That is why I don't like it. But I am not complaining about it. Someone can dislike something but at the same time not complain. I made the post simply to inform others about how some residents in my building feel about Porter. It was not a post to complain about Porter. I wish Porter and its customers well.

BTW, the planes can get very close to my building. So close that sometimes I can read the tail. But I am not too concerned about a plane hitting my building.

I noticed you said you live near Woodbine. Do you live in the Beach? I am thinking of buying a house there? Any advice?
 
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