Barrie Collingwood Railway (BCRY)

[micheal_can]

Almost certainly the west.
The key is being what the cost is to reinstate service on that side using the old ROW (and somehow figuring out downtown Barrie............)
Or whether a new ROW is both cost-effective, and provides reasonable travel times to achieve the desired outcome.
I lean towards the do-ability on the west side.
But it does require further study.

I am not sure why it is worth studying the east side if there is no obvious reason for people to use it. If you had to pay for the study, would it be worth the money to say what a layman can see?

 

[lenaitch]

Most may not realize this, but hydro corridors usually are not owned by the hydro companies.[\quote]

Not only that, their alignment is completely different from that that required by rail. Add in their clearances required for service and maintenance plus whatever electromagnetic separations that may be required. Between Essa and Parry Sound there are three 2-circuit strings.

On street view and satellite view it looks like nothing has been built on the actual ROW, but I don't know about whether it actually is fully intact.

Between Washago and Orillia, it is built over by Casino Rama infrastructure. At Atherley a bridge would have to be replaced, and west of Atherley, some adjacent properties come quite close to the trail which suggests encroachment. Depending how deeply one want to get to downtown Orillia, I believe the former station has been sold to private owners and there is no other space downtown for a station facility. West of the station/old wye, Home Hardware covers the ROW.

At most, looking to use Bala for an Orillia Toronto connection only makes sense to me if you build a green-field ROW connecting to the south-east from Atherley.

That roughly approximates the former Midland Railway (Central Ontario Railway or whatever it was called in the end). You can see remains of the ROW in the sat view. It continued n/w from Orillia to Midland and crossed the CP at Coldwater (Medonte).

 

[micheal_can]

That roughly approximates the former Midland Railway (Central Ontario Railway or whatever it was called in the end). You can see remains of the ROW in the sat view. It continued n/w from Orillia to Midland and crossed the CP at Coldwater (Medonte).

That would work.

 

[Northern Light]

I am not sure why it is worth studying the east side if there is no obvious reason for people to use it. If you had to pay for the study, would it be worth the money to say what a layman can see?

Michael. There is a reason you test the patience of many people here, and over at SSP.
Its because you fancy yourself more knowledgeable than you are.
We're all learning, all the time or at least we should be.
Certainly, sometimes, it does not take a lot of specialized knowledge to see where an outcome will lead.
But here, while I certainly can discern some superficial observations which I can more than likely support with hard evidence, there are things I don't know.

1) How much would it cost, assuming it were otherwise possible, to reinstate the ROW through downtown Barrie and the other sections where it has been compromised?
How much of a fight would Barrie put up if it meant fencing off some of their waterfront Parks? Does that mean either burying or elevating through that section? What would that cost?

2) If we decide we can't go through DT Barrie, how much time does a re-route to the west add to the trip? How much does it cost to build the new ROW?

3) If a greenfield connection to Bala were made on the east side, can it offer a competitive travel time to Richmond Hill, Markham and Toronto? Can it do so at a cost similar to or cheaper than the west side?

That's what a study is for!

I have a reputation here for doing better 'educated guesses' than most.

But it would be a fair bit of work for me to make those guesses; and with a substantial margin of error just the same. I have a day job, LOL

Studies aren't always a delay tactic; they are sometimes helpful.

 

[lenaitch]

Which would actually provide more a benefit to people from the Orillia area?

To do what, which is the crux of what a business case should determine. I worked in Orillia for several years and I'm not convinced there is the need for commuter-type rail from Orillia to the GTA. In my time there I don't think I met anyone who worked in the GTA, even the north end; the furthest I can recall was folks working at Honda Alliston. For those times that residents have a burning desire to head to Toronto, it's a short drive to GO Barrie or (possibly soon) ONR Washago. I am not convinced there is anywhere near a business case to justify what it would cost to implement any route.

 

[micheal_can]

Michael. There is a reason you test the patience of many people here, and over at SSP.
Its because you fancy yourself more knowledgeable than you are.
We're all learning, all the time or at least we should be.
Certainly, sometimes, it does not take a lot of specialized knowledge to see where an outcome will lead.
But here, while I certainly can discern some superficial observations which I can more than likely support with hard evidence, there are things I don't know.

1) How much would it cost, assuming it were otherwise possible, to reinstate the ROW through downtown Barrie and the other sections where it has been compromised?
How much of a fight would Barrie put up if it meant fencing off some of their waterfront Parks? Does that mean either burying or elevating through that section? What would that cost?

2) If we decide we can't go through DT Barrie, how much time does a re-route to the west add to the trip? How much does it cost to build the new ROW?

3) If a greenfield connection to Bala were made on the east side, can it offer a competitive travel time to Richmond Hill, Markham and Toronto? Can it do so at a cost similar to or cheaper than the west side?

That's what a study is for!

I have a reputation here for doing better 'educated guesses' than most.

But it would be a fair bit of work for me to make those guesses; and with a substantial margin of error just the same. I have a day job, LOL

Studies aren't always a delay tactic; they are sometimes helpful.

I am not blind to my lack of knowledge. I, however don't like when answers are slapping people in the face and don't want to see it.
Everything you listed are things I have already thought of, and thinking citizen who doesn't care about transit, or really cares about something the transit would change, I can say that things like fencing off a downtown waterfront park would not go over very well. It does not take a knowledgeable expert to figure that out. The real issue is whether wasting taxpayer's money on a study on a rought that really has no real advantages. So, let's say the government did the study and handed you a bill for it. Would you feel it is a worthwhile venture to even explore it?

To do what, which is the crux of what a business case should determine. I worked in Orillia for several years and I'm not convinced there is the need for commuter-type rail from Orillia to the GTA. In my time there I don't think I met anyone who worked in the GTA, even the north end; the furthest I can recall was folks working at Honda Alliston. For those times that residents have a burning desire to head to Toronto, it's a short drive to GO Barrie or (possibly soon) ONR Washago. I am not convinced there is anywhere near a business case to justify what it would cost to implement any route.

Right now....
People I know who live in London cannot fathom why someone who lives in Toronto and works in Toronto wants to move to London as most would think that is a crazy idea.
For Orillia, we need to watch the new subdivisions being built to gauge the real demand. Someone who lives in the area would be more knowledgeable in that area. If getting more people out of their cars is the goal, bringing in more rail transit is needed.

 

[Nomad_87]

Are there any examples of returning a ROW to rail after a rails-to-trails conversion? I can't see any Barrie-Orillia connection being politically viable that uses the existing Oro Rail Trail.

If HFR goes ahead the rails to Tweed will be revived, that's all I can think of

 

[Nomad_87]

Most may not realize this, but hydro corridors usually are not owned by the hydro companies.



Well, the Havelock subdivision might be a good starting point.
I imagine if they were to reroute the Northlander through here it might be more appealing. It makes more sense if they want to serve Orillia.



On street view and satellite view it looks like nothing has been built on the actual ROW, but I don't know about whether it actually is fully intact.

The row through Orillia are entirely a trail, with the exception of a warehouse just before Orillia station. It is possible to bring the rails back, is it worth the cost is another question entirely. Which is why I suggested the Bala sub, far less land and new rails would be needed

 

[Nomad_87]

But back on the Meaford Subdivision. I think a station in West Barrie/Essa could be warranted. After all the rails between the Utopia diamond and Allandale are still, and will remain operational. Question is where to put it

 

[jamincan]

The east route has a number of problems:

• I'm not convinced that the new ROW michael_can proposes connecting the MacTier Subdivision to the old Newmarket Subdivision is even viable as there is some pretty steep topography on the west end of that section and it skirts through wetlands, which would be a political issue.
• The Oro-Medonte Trail is very well used and loved, not just by locals, but also people outside the area as this forms a part of the Simcoe Loop Trail, which is a popular destination bike route. I expect political opposition would be very high.
• The ROW passes directly through a Home Hardware in Orillia.

Couple that with what I would consider a very week business case, I can't see these issues being worth solving. The old Midland Railway ROW could be used to connect the MacTier Subdivision to Orillia, but that is a very indirect and circuitous route.

The west route would be more politically viable as the sections of ROW that are trails are not as important or significant, but the business case is even weaker. Interestingly, I believe GO used to run a train up to the Casino Rama when it first opened along the Newmarket Subdivision, but it was eventually cancelled.

 

[micheal_can]

The east route has a number of problems:

• I'm not convinced that the new ROW michael_can proposes connecting the MacTier Subdivision to the old Newmarket Subdivision is even viable as there is some pretty steep topography on the west end of that section and it skirts through wetlands, which would be a political issue.
• The Oro-Medonte Trail is very well used and loved, not just by locals, but also people outside the area as this forms a part of the Simcoe Loop Trail, which is a popular destination bike route. I expect political opposition would be very high.
• The ROW passes directly through a Home Hardware in Orillia.

Couple that with what I would consider a very week business case, I can't see these issues being worth solving. The old Midland Railway ROW could be used to connect the MacTier Subdivision to Orillia, but that is a very indirect and circuitous route.

The west route would be more politically viable as the sections of ROW that are trails are not as important or significant, but the business case is even weaker. Interestingly, I believe GO used to run a train up to the Casino Rama when it first opened along the Newmarket Subdivision, but it was eventually cancelled.

If the goal is to get people from Orillia into Toronto, then, yes the east side makes sense. However, if your goal is to allow those in Orillia to commute to Barrie without a car, then the only option is the west side.. Thee route I showed actually follows the curve of the hills to prevent steep hills. There is the loss of trails, but possibly, that could be mitigated by having a tail following the rail line. The home hardware is a problem if the line is to continue north. the government ha bought land for extensions of transit. This could just be one more thing they buy.

The fact that there isn't even a GO bus to Orillia should be enough to make this all moot. I highly doubt that GO will expand a train before they expand with a bus.

 

[lenaitch]

If the goal is to get people from Orillia into Toronto, then, yes the east side makes sense. However, if your goal is to allow those in Orillia to commute to Barrie without a car, then the only option is the west side.. Thee route I showed actually follows the curve of the hills to prevent steep hills. There is the loss of trails, but possibly, that could be mitigated by having a tail following the rail line. The home hardware is a problem if the line is to continue north. the government ha bought land for extensions of transit. This could just be one more thing they buy.

The fact that there isn't even a GO bus to Orillia should be enough to make this all moot. I highly doubt that GO will expand a train before they expand with a bus.

There is a Simcoe County 'Linx' bus service between Barrie and Orillia; currently eights runs per days. Admittedly no weekend or stat service, but the entire Linx service is fledgling and has been expanding at a decent pace across the County.

 

[ShonTron]

My complaint (besides the lack of weekend service) is that the Linx buses do not have a common terminal in Barrie - from the GO (Allandale or the Downtown Terminal), you have to take a Barrie bus to Georgian College, then take a Linx bus, then an Orillia bus to get downtown. There is no fare integration either.

Only the bus from Wasaga Beach and Angus connects to GO at Allandale.

 

[Nomad_87]

My complaint (besides the lack of weekend service) is that the Linx buses do not have a common terminal in Barrie - from the GO (Allandale or the Downtown Terminal), you have to take a Barrie bus to Georgian College, then take a Linx bus, then an Orillia bus to get downtown. There is no fare integration either.

Only the bus from Wasaga Beach and Angus connects to GO at Allandale.

I’m hoping with the Allandale mobility hub that the County moves all Linx buses to the GO station. Georgian and RVH are ok for connectivity. But Allandale is better in just about every way

 

[lenaitch]

I’m hoping with the Allandale mobility hub that the County moves all Linx buses to the GO station. Georgian and RVH are ok for connectivity. But Allandale is better in just about every way

And it may evolve to that. The service was set up to link travel needs within the County (students, medical appointments, etc.). Hopefully, a future evolution will solve that.