Barrie Collingwood Railway (BCRY)

[lenaitch]

I'm actually a little surprised GO have not considered (maybe they have) pushing the line from Allendale to Ferndale. Although not growing as quickly as the south end and |nnisfil, the west end of Barrie is still a growth area and there appears to be lots of land for a station. It would solve traffic having to head towards Allendale via the limited number of Hwy 400 crossings. They would have to accommodate BCR traffic which is a daytime operation.

Lines on a map are often fun. Although we are not talking mountain railroading, try to push a new route from Meaford to Owen Sound would have to take into account climbing the Niagara Escarpment.

Similarly but to a lesser scale, cutting a virgin line west around Barrie to reclaim the old route to Orilla would deal with fairly rolling terrain (Oro Moraine), meaning a circuitous route or much earthwork and, of course complete land acquisition. There's probably a reason the original route followed the lake. The Hydro corridor is of little use; it heads towards Parry Sound.

Re-laying the Newmarket Sub to Orillia? It would require re-claiming the ROW in Rama, plus a new bridge at the narrows plus probably some ROW reclamation along Atherley Rd (not considering current ownership).

Anything is possible given enough money, which I am led to believe is apparently not unlimited, but for what frequency and ridership?

*****

The discussion of pax rail to Collingwood and Wasaga is interesting. Regardless of how close the railhead got to the hills, the need to schlepp ski equipment would have to be accommodated, perhaps something similar to the 'bike cars' to Niagara. I do recall that 'ski trains' in BC and Quebec have not been successful. Similarly, lugging kids, floaties, and other beach detritus to Wasaga would be a similar issue. The main public beaches are Beach 1 and 2 (east end), the others are public but hemmed in with private ownership. That problem may solve itself if the local council gets its way to 're-imagine' the main beach area. It may up-scale it but will likely drive away many weekend warriors and day trippers.

 

[Rainforest]

The old ROW for the Newmarket Subdivision still entirely exists as a trail, if you can bypass downtown Barrie it is theoretically possible to revive the route to Orillia. Though tbh it’s probably more practical to just revive the spur from the Bala sub to Orillia

Good point, but on the other hand, that means two separate services. One up the Bala sub terminating in Orillia, another up the Bala sub following the Northland route. And, both of them will compete with freight for the track time.

There is an appeal of piggy-backing on the Barrie line (Newmarket sub) instead, which is owned by Metrolinx and apparently can be dual-tracked all the way to Union. Plus, all major destinations on the same line, no branches. The same train from North Bay could serve Huntsville / Bracebridge / Gravenhurst, then Orillia, and then complement the GO service at Barrie.

 

[jamincan]

2) Something like this?

Orllia GO - Google My Maps

From he Barrie Line north to Orillia and to Washago

www.google.com

Are there any examples of returning a ROW to rail after a rails-to-trails conversion? I can't see any Barrie-Orillia connection being politically viable that uses the existing Oro Rail Trail.

 

[Rainforest]

2) Something like this?

Orllia GO - Google My Maps

From he Barrie Line north to Orillia and to Washago

www.google.com

That would be one of the options. Barrie to Orillia: using the CP line is a possibility.

Orillia to Washago: I just don't know if the rail through Orillia still can be reclaimed. If yes, then surely that's a better broute, serving downtown Orillia and then using the existing Bala sub corridor. If needed, can add the second track there up to just north of Washago, where the two lines split.

 

[Rainforest]

Are there any examples of returning a ROW to rail after a rails-to-trails conversion? I can't see any Barrie-Orillia connection being politically viable that uses the existing Oro Rail Trail.

If no prior examples, then we should try to create one A trail is nice to have, but a rail line has a greater impact and serves more people ..

 

[micheal_can]

There’s a hyro corridor just outside of Barrie, weather they’d allow for rail service in said corridor is another question

Most may not realize this, but hydro corridors usually are not owned by the hydro companies.

Are there any examples of returning a ROW to rail after a rails-to-trails conversion? I can't see any Barrie-Orillia connection being politically viable that uses the existing Oro Rail Trail.

Well, the Havelock subdivision might be a good starting point.
I imagine if they were to reroute the Northlander through here it might be more appealing. It makes more sense if they want to serve Orillia.

That would be one of the options. Barrie to Orillia: using the CP line is a possibility.

Orillia to Washago: I just don't know if the rail through Orillia still can be reclaimed. If yes, then surely that's a better broute, serving downtown Orillia and then using the existing Bala sub corridor. If needed, can add the second track there up to just north of Washago, where the two lines split.

On street view and satellite view it looks like nothing has been built on the actual ROW, but I don't know about whether it actually is fully intact.

 

[micheal_can]

I do think its important to distinguish a 'last mile' shuttle bus from an essential part of a core trip.

***

I'm not anti-bus; but if I was hauling skis up to Blue Mountain, and had to get that gear onto a train, but then I can relax, have a comfy seat, speed past the highway traffic, maybe even enjoy meal service or snacks.........I'm sold..........tell me to get out at Barrie, take all my gear off the train, schlep it on to the bus, where I'll be lucky if there's an on-board bathroom, and the travel speed is the same as traffic...........my enthusiasm is dropping rapidly.

vs

I got to Blue Mountain or within 1km of it, and I have a bus designed/laid out for skiiers which literally takes me to the door of my accommodation.....

or...

That same run......but aiming at Wasaga, maybe it only makes sense to have a station near the furthest beach, but many of family amenities are near Beach 1.
I could just walk to the nearest Beach, or I could grab a local bikeshare, ideally with cargo bike, or child seat...........or I could grab a local bus that runs parallel to all the beaches.........
since I'm not hauling skis, I think that might work.

Its a question of whether you want to grab the discretionary rider. I own a car
What are you offering me in exchange for ??? $40 round trip. That's a similar cost to the gas.........

You need to match or beat speed (travel time); you need to offer a level of comfort and amenity to offset some loss of flexibility (I'm now at the mercy of a train schedule) etc.
The point is not to be anti-bus, or to fail to acknowledge 'last mile' issues......But to say that a trip that is too cumbersome isn't worth it to the discretionary rider;
and the 'captive' rider is likely not a robust enough market to support such a service.

No, I did not say that.

Please consider reading posts in full, and accurately attributing quotes.

The above post doesn't sound very pro transit to me. It sounds more of a "gimme what I want" and not thinking of the real challenges of what you want.

 

[nfitz]

Are there any examples of returning a ROW to rail after a rails-to-trails conversion? I can't see any Barrie-Orillia connection being politically viable that uses the existing Oro Rail Trail.

I think there are in other countries.

Not quite the same, but on the Kitchener line I thought they did relocate a trail when they reinstalled some addition tracks south (?) of Bloor.

Not difficult I'd think in many places to put a replacement trail adjacent to a reinstalled rail ROW.

 

[Northern Light]

Reinstating the NewMarket sub from Orillia to Bala doesn't provide a connection to Barrie which would be the most useful thing; along with connecting to Toronto.

For Toronto, there's another issue though, using the original connection to Bala would take you 16km away from Toronto; which then necessitates backtracking that same 16km, thus adding 32km to the trip to Toronto.

I'm certainly not opposed to relaying track if there is a case for it; but I don't think the case would be commuter service for those in Orillia.

At most, looking to use Bala for an Orillia Toronto connection only makes sense to me if you build a green-field ROW connecting to the south-east from Atherley.

I'm not convinced the business case is there, but I'd be open to looking at it.

 

[micheal_can]

Reinstating the NewMarket sub from Orillia to Bala doesn't provide a connection to Barrie which would be the most useful thing; along with connecting to Toronto.

For Toronto, there's another issue though, using the original connection to Bala would take you 16km away from Toronto; which then necessitates backtracking that same 16km, thus adding 32km to the trip to Toronto.

I'm certainly not opposed to relaying track if there is a case for it; but I don't think the case would be commuter service for those in Orillia.

At most, looking to use Bala for an Orillia Toronto connection only makes sense to me if you build a green-field ROW connecting to the south-east from Atherley.

View attachment 333694

I'm not convinced the business case is there, but I'd be open to looking at it.

The problem with stay to the east of Lake Simcoe is that is mainly farmland with little residential for much of the route. It would be more worth working a way on the west side.

 

[Northern Light]

The problem with stay to the east of Lake Simcoe is that is mainly farmland with little residential for much of the route. It would be more worth working a way on the west side.

I agree, the case for the west side of the Lake is better.

I simply wouldn't rule out the east side all together, without running the numbers.

But I am suspicious they would not add up.

 

[micheal_can]

I agree, the case for the west side of the Lake is better.

I simply wouldn't rule out the east side all together, without running the numbers.

But I am suspicious they would not add up.

North of Bloomington GO, what towns of any real size does the line touch before getting to Washago?

 

[Northern Light]

North of Bloomington GO, what towns of any real size does the line touch before getting to Washago?

None of which I'm aware.......though, I don't believe Washago was identified as the target, Orillia was.
As such, its a much more challenging route to make viable than the west side.
Which I stated.
Any business case would be based entirely on Orillia to York Region/Toronto.
I'm not sure the case is there. But I see no reason to preclude a closer look.

 

[micheal_can]

None of which I'm aware.......though, I don't believe Washago was identified as the target, Orillia was.
As such, its a much more challenging route to make viable than the west side.
Which I stated.
Any business case would be based entirely on Orillia to York Region/Toronto.
I'm not sure the case is there. But I see no reason to preclude a closer look.

Let's say the costs were the same to go to the east or to the west. Which would actually provide more a benefit to people from the Orillia area?

 

[Northern Light]

Let's say the costs were the same to go to the east or to the west. Which would actually provide more a benefit to people from the Orillia area?

Almost certainly the west.
The key is being what the cost is to reinstate service on that side using the old ROW (and somehow figuring out downtown Barrie............)
Or whether a new ROW is both cost-effective, and provides reasonable travel times to achieve the desired outcome.
I lean towards the do-ability on the west side.
But it does require further study.