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Baby, we got a bubble!?

Maple leaf square launched at $400 psf on the ground, now only 3 units left for rent under $2300 in both towers and a total of 26 for rent from $1500 to $7500 out of 900 units, folks the rental numbers are just amazing.

Luna was less than $350's psf at launch, Panorama I did not promote, West Harbour was also less than $400 psf

I work Bay and College, Yonge and Bloor, Yonge to CNE gates south of Front only. This is the area I track and I invest and sell in. If we make it past 2010 and supply gets eaten up, I am calling for a strong spring of 2011. By that time, I hope to have a coffee with simulus

thank you for this information George.
It confirms what I had thought and have previously stated. It is my view that returns make sense at $400/sq. ft are questionable at $500 and I don't believe justify $600. However the rate of return one wishes/accepts is individual.

George, would you not agree that it is however unlikely that rents will increase given that there are 18000 units of new supply to come on board for the rest of this year? Recall rents have not increased to any degree over the past 10 years despite good real estate times?
 
thank you for this information George.
It confirms what I had thought and have previously stated. It is my view that returns make sense at $400/sq. ft are questionable at $500 and I don't believe justify $600. However the rate of return one wishes/accepts is individual.

George, would you not agree that it is however unlikely that rents will increase given that there are 18000 units of new supply to come on board for the rest of this year? Recall rents have not increased to any degree over the past 10 years despite good real estate times?

I dont compare the whole GTA market to whats happening in a specific area like Bay and College or York and Bremner, I do think rents will increase. Let me give you an example.... When Maple Leaf Square came to market in April May June there were over 900 units that owners that had keys of those I would say maybe 400 were for rent, I personally rented two one beds for $1375 no parking at that time, now the same one bed rented for $1450 and the last one rented for $1500. There is simply no supply left at maple leaf square and if you have a one bed list it for $1595 you may get it. Along with the fact that there will be 4 office towers, a Ripleys Aquarium, Delta hotel etc etc you cannot say that this area is the same supply demand characteristics as a one bed in Mississauga where land is available and tons of supply is coming on board. The area I do alot of business in is Yonge to CNE gates south of Front and I only see Neptune at Waterparkcity coming to market in 2011.
 
George, do you not view all the market at the lakefront and say the condos in the entertainment district, Yonge Bay corridor as competition as well since $1595 would definately be beyond the usual asking price or acheived prices in most of these areas. I know I get at University and Richmond about $1500/month for a 600 sq. ft 1 bedroom no parking but the building is 5 years old though quite nice features (SS, granite, hardwood laminate, marble bath).
 
George, do you not view all the market at the lakefront and say the condos in the entertainment district, Yonge Bay corridor as competition as well since $1595 would definately be beyond the usual asking price or acheived prices in most of these areas. I know I get at University and Richmond about $1500/month for a 600 sq. ft 1 bedroom no parking but the building is 5 years old though quite nice features (SS, granite, hardwood laminate, marble bath).

Demand / prices for sale or rent can be different on the same block, look at Rivera vs Waterclub, or Maple Leaf Square vs Infinity
 
True, agree with that statement. However, renters generally look at cost and I think one will abut a ceiling beyond which people won't pay. I would think 1600 is pushing it today for a 1 bedroom no parking in less than a luxury building, however, that is just my view.
 
True, agree with that statement. However, renters generally look at cost and I think one will abut a ceiling beyond which people won't pay. I would think 1600 is pushing it today for a 1 bedroom no parking in less than a luxury building, however, that is just my view.

i agree ... why one would pay $1450-1500 for a small 1 bedroom unit (~500SF) at RMLS for a non-luxury building that's right next to the Gardiner Expressway
 
Only a person set on that building will pay beyond the $1500 for MLS. However, as George's post shows, poeple are (wisely or unwisely) paying at least $1500.
 
True, agree with that statement. However, renters generally look at cost and I think one will abut a ceiling beyond which people won't pay. I would think 1600 is pushing it today for a 1 bedroom no parking in less than a luxury building, however, that is just my view.

I agree with you, but if there are only a few units and you want in that tower......
 
Here are some from craigslist posted in the last week.

Jr1bd $1350 484 sf 33rd fl
http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/tor/apa/1907368409.html
1bdrm $1400
http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/tor/apa/1894941714.html
1bd $1500
http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/tor/apa/1905267947.html
1brdm furnished $1725
http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/tor/apa/1887758481.html
1bd +den $1750
http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/tor/apa/1898128480.html
2bd $1800
http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/tor/apa/1898977238.html

I only see one MLS listing for both sale ($660/sf w parking) and rent
$829k sale http://www.realtor.ca/PropertyDetails.aspx?&PropertyId=9725714&PidKey=2038149346
$3200 rent http://www.realtor.ca/PropertyDetails.aspx?&PropertyId=9725765&PidKey=-1518814862
estimating $1000/month for condo fees, taxes
3% Cap rate (before vacancy, upkeep, etc). If one drops the price by 40%, it is still only a 5% cap rate.
 
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Here is a link, the first 2 listings are under 500 sq ft facing North, one is obstructed by Telus Tower. This list is a complete for rent list of whats on the market for Maple Leaf Square.

http://www.torontomls.net/PublicWeb/CL.asp?link_no=32552125.026300

CG:

Are those FOR LEASE prices or LEASED prices?


CDR108 said:
i agree ... why one would pay $1450-1500 for a small 1 bedroom unit (~500SF) at RMLS for a non-luxury building that's right next to the Gardiner Expressway

CDR:

I have 2 words for you- FREE RENT.
 
Here is a link, the first 2 listings are under 500 sq ft facing North, one is obstructed by Telus Tower. This list is a complete for rent list of whats on the market for Maple Leaf Square.

http://www.torontomls.net/PublicWeb/CL.asp?link_no=32552125.026300

thanks George !


CG:

Are those FOR LEASE prices or LEASED prices?.

those are FOR LEASE ... they are current active listings and you can tell from the DOM how long each has been on the market.

i noticed a few that were 45+days old, and another one that was 90+days.


CDR:

I have 2 words for you- FREE RENT.

what do you mean?
 
what do you mean?

I am suggesting that many of those leases include a month's free rent, or free parking, or some other unreported incentive.

Regardless, I would be quite surprised if the real return amounts to much more than 4% on acquisition cost in this building (even at $350 per square foot) if you do a look-back 24-36 months forward. Tenants will surely roll, you will have to spend money on turnover costs, leasing commissions and possible vacancy. Owning a rental unit here means you are happy to accept zero return on your capital for the foreseeable future but hopefully not lose too much. Not for me but a better play than GM shares at the IPO I would suspect.
 
Everyone has their own niche and own requirement but in general I will expand on CN Tower's point about being careful about pushing for high-rents. Personally I never base my strategy on pushing the limits of the rent the market can stand. Remember that people act in their own best interests. If you try to catch or god forbid trap people into paying a higher rent than the average for your particular class of unit they will generally understand thes situation and exact concessions from you either directly or indirectly. This could be in the form of being high maintenance, moving out early so you have high turn-over, treating the place like crap etc. Think about it like Steven Covey's "emotional bank account". When you charge a higher than average (for you class of unit) rent you are taking a withdrawal from your tenant's emotional bank account. If you charge less than the average rent you are depositing into the emotional bank account. I think the best strategy is to charge an average market rent and make emotional deposits into your tenant's bank account that cost you little, while making withdrawals from their emotional bank account that translate into real deposits into your real bank account.
 
Ottawa — From Saturday's Globe and Mail
Published on Friday, Aug. 20, 2010 7:11AM EDT

Last updated on Friday, Aug. 20, 2010 7:25PM EDT


The world’s recovery from the worst downturn since the Depression is losing ground by the day, and the blowback is starting to hurt Canada.

The Canadian inflation reading released Friday marked the latest in a string of worrisome reports, raising concerns about the health of the economic rebound. The consumer price index for July showed an inflation rate of 1.8 per cent, a softer reading than expected by most economists, and a sign there are few pricing pressures amid uneven demand for goods.

The tame inflation report is just the latest signal that the recovery is slowing. Other recent economic indicators showed the first drop in employment this year, a housing market cooling rapidly, and signs that exports are already suffering from weaker demand in the U.S. and Europe going into the second half of the year.

The economic downdraft means Bank of Canada Governor Mark Carney, the only Group of Seven central banker to have raised interest rates since the recession ended, may be forced to soon rejoin his colleagues on the sidelines. Many economists still expect Mr. Carney will raise his benchmark rate a third consecutive time on Sept. 8, to 1 per cent. But most say he could then take a long break to assess the damage from the sputtering U.S. economy and sluggish growth in Europe.

Even with the harmonized sales tax coming into force in Ontario and British Columbia, year-over-year inflation in July accelerated just 0.1 percentage point from the previous month’s pace, Statistics Canada said.




The so-called core rate (which strips out tax changes and volatile items such as gasoline) slowed unexpectedly to 1.6 per-cent on an annual basis – leaving it below Mr. Carney’s 2-per-cent target and his forecast of 1.8-per-cent core inflation for the entire third quarter.

The U.S. Federal Reserve, meanwhile, is on deflation watch and this month said it will keep the taps of monetary stimulus open rather than backing away from the steps it took to fight the financial crisis, suggesting that it fears the recovery in Canada’s No. 1 market has weakened so much that any talk of scaling back emergency support would hurt confidence.
“Given the clear signs of a marked slowdown in the U.S., it would be entirely reasonable for the Bank to take a long hard look at whether they too want to pause,” said Doug Porter, deputy chief economist at BMO Nesbitt Burns in Toronto. “If things are soft enough that the Fed had to shift its policy, even if ever so slightly, I think it’s pretty reasonable for the Bank to have some second or third thoughts as well about whether it’s appropriate to continue [raising rates].” Stocks plunged Thursday after reports showed new claims for U.S. unemployment benefits hit a nine-month high last week and factory production in the mid-Atlantic states slumped to its weakest level in a year. They fell again on Friday, after a top European Central Bank official said the 16-nation euro zone isn’t ready for policy makers to start removing stimulus.




Investors will be wary next week, when the U.S. Commerce Department is expected to report that the world’s biggest economy grew at a measly 1.4-per-cent pace in the second quarter, worse than the first estimate of 2.4 per cent.

Canadian growth likely slowed to 3 per cent between April and June from 6.1 per cent in the first three months of the year, Mr. Carney has said, stressing that further rate moves will be “weighed carefully” against developments at home and abroad.

Economists predict Canada’s second-quarter pace of growth, due for release on Aug. 31, will be closer to 2.5 per cent.

Investors are already less certain of a Sept. 8 rate hike. The Canadian dollar fell by as much as a penny to the lowest level in a month on Friday, and markets tied to expectations for future interest rates put the probability of a September increase at about 50-50.






Jay Myers, president and CEO of Canadian Manufacturers & Exporters, the country’s main industrial lobby group, said Friday that business executives across the country are increasingly worried about what will happen to domestic spending as the kick from government spending wears off, since they’re already feeling headwinds from the U.S. and overseas.

“I’m hearing more that orders are being cancelled, I’m hearing more that customers are getting later in payment; these are all indicators that we saw in late 2007 and early 2008, pointing to a slowdown,” Mr. Myers said. “Unwinding stimulus is going to be a major drag on the economy going forward, and I think the Bank has to be very sensitive about that.”





//www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/weak-inflation-signals-economic-doldrums/article1679448/


All of this does not bode well nor in anyway support continued increases in real estate prices. It would in fact support a decrease of price and in fact I don't see how the predictions of increases with inflation will occur that have been suggested by the Real estate association or some economists.
 
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