scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Every mall was smaller back then...it wasn't expanded because of the subway. edit - if you were implying that.
|
|
|
Allen Road/Spadina Subway Urbanization
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
CDL.TO
Moderator
I disagree and am surprised that you say that. Building a subway to Yorkdale has the effect of building a whole new expressway there and helped cement it as a destination for much of Toronto. You yourself point out the amount of subway traffic it creates (which I'll also point out is a very off-peak flow, though I assume your comment wasn't referring to bus passengers at other Spadina stations). How else could it have increased threefold while decreasing parking?
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
The little wing that physically runs to the subway station was built "because of" the subway but, other than that, it would have expanded anyway over the years.
Anyway, the point is that a line isn't a failure if clusters of condos don't sprout - more people will always be bussed in. Redevelopment is just a bonus.
Anyway, the point is that a line isn't a failure if clusters of condos don't sprout - more people will always be bussed in. Redevelopment is just a bonus.
Before Apple opened the store in the Eaton Centre I went to Apple's Yorkdale store a few times by subway. Would never have done that if the subway had not existed.
CDL.TO
Moderator
That's hardly guaranteed as almost no other mall has seen the expansion that Yorkdale has during the same period. It wasn't originally an upscale mall, and doesn't have the surrounding demographics of Bayview Village. By 1978 when the subway opened the market catchment area of Yorkdale was already built out and stabilized. Fairview certainly didn't expand in the way the Yorkville did and it has even better highway access. The only other mall in the GTA that had expansion that even compared to the massive expansion of Yorkdale is Square one, whose market area only obtained buildout a couple years ago. And yet again, the simple observation that expansion occurred while parking capacity didn't increase points to a different input of customers.
Have a look at Google maps. There isn't a "little wing" that extends to the subway... the entire damn mall was extended towards the subway. The north face towards the 401 is original, all subsequent expansions have been towards the south-east.
Honestly, you point out that thousands upon thousands of people take the subway to Yorkdale everyday but think it had no effect on the growth of the mall?
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
STC has doubled in size, Sherway's mused about adding an entire second storey...Yorkdale's expansions may be bigger than they otherwise would have been because of the subway, but that's waaay different from, for example, the redevelopment of a bunch of bungalows into the North York Towers complex.
I mention how many riders it generates mainly to contrast it with all of the riders that people think condo projects will generate - but won't.
I mention how many riders it generates mainly to contrast it with all of the riders that people think condo projects will generate - but won't.
CDL.TO
Moderator
Oh, I agree for sure about the condos. They may be "high density" but that's for what? 1000 square metres? In the grand scheme of things it doesn't make much difference.
But how's it essentially different from the NY Towers? It's simply commercial sector vs residental sector. Many of the same factors in play: increased accessibility increasing demand leading to an increased supply. Funny you mention STC... it has the SRT and a sizeable bus terminal while Sherway "muses" about expansion and sits at the same size it's always been with even better highway access than STC or Yorkdale. How about the CBD for that matter?
But how's it essentially different from the NY Towers? It's simply commercial sector vs residental sector. Many of the same factors in play: increased accessibility increasing demand leading to an increased supply. Funny you mention STC... it has the SRT and a sizeable bus terminal while Sherway "muses" about expansion and sits at the same size it's always been with even better highway access than STC or Yorkdale. How about the CBD for that matter?
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Yorkdale was different because the mall was already there...nothing was rezoned.
Sherway has expanded a bit, Fairview expanded c.1990, STC's first big expansion opened 6 years before the RT. The degree to which Yorkdale would have expanded without the subway is unknown (I'll agree it was one of many factors), but I think it would have expanded. Yorkdale has always drawn from further out than most other GTA malls...I bet almost everyone in Vaughan shops there now (although Vaughan Mills might have sucked some folks away).
Sherway has expanded a bit, Fairview expanded c.1990, STC's first big expansion opened 6 years before the RT. The degree to which Yorkdale would have expanded without the subway is unknown (I'll agree it was one of many factors), but I think it would have expanded. Yorkdale has always drawn from further out than most other GTA malls...I bet almost everyone in Vaughan shops there now (although Vaughan Mills might have sucked some folks away).
CDL.TO
Moderator
I never said it wouldn't have ever expanded without the subway, that would just by silly. During the course of its existence the 401 has been widened by how much? I've argued that it wouldn't have expanded to the same extent and wouldn't serve the same role in the retail hierarchy of the Toronto area.
First you said it wasn't expanded because of the subway, and now you're saying it was a factor. Which is it?
First you said it wasn't expanded because of the subway, and now you're saying it was a factor. Which is it?
tempperm
New Member
Of course yorkdale has benefitted by having a subway stop. So why no new major development along Allen Road/Spadina Subway?
Have u been reading the Toronto "Official Plan" unimaginative2?
Have u been reading the Toronto "Official Plan" unimaginative2?
CDL.TO
Moderator
It's historical factors. Spadina north of St. Clair West was in North York, where council apparently wasn't as willing to rezone stable residential to high-density. It's all about politics.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Yes, tempperm, of course Yorkdale has benefitted from having a subway stop.
Yorkdale was already there and would have expanded to some degree anyway...but NY Towers was a direct result of the subway because the subway caused the area to be rezoned. That's the difference.
Yorkdale was already there and would have expanded to some degree anyway...but NY Towers was a direct result of the subway because the subway caused the area to be rezoned. That's the difference.
DENTROBATE54
Banned
Today Yorkdale and the Spadina Line seemingly couldn't function without the other but does anyone know what was the original purpose of the Spadina Line? What it intended for York University from conception, or merely a downtown relief line that just happened to wind up where it's located today?
CDL.TO
Moderator
The crux of your argument is that rezoning occurred? In both cases expansion occurred because of a subway being built but one is different than the other because it required a change in zoning to occur? Or that the mall perhaps only would have grown half as much without the subway but somehow it can't be said that the subway caused the mall to grow?
Frankly, I'm not even sure what it is you're trying to argue.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
NY Towers was a redevelopment triggered because of the subway...Yorkdale wasn't. It would have expanded anyway. Even today, only about 20% of Yorkdale's traffic comes from the subway. Yes, the fact that rezoning occurred is a main point...Yorkdale doesn't count as a "post-Spadina redevelopment."