Allen Road/Spadina Subway Urbanization

[doady]

I don't see why even need to keep the Allen Rd in the first place. It is not important and not worth burying. Just get rid of one side of it and convert the other side into a regular arterial road and then you will have a corridor with lots of development potential that pedestrians can actually traverse, as any corridor with a subway line should have been in the first place.

 

[unimaginative2]

There have been many ideas floating around for years about redeveloping the Allan. I've seen plans to deck over and build residences, just like we're seeing here. There were also plans to convert the ditch (before it was finished as a highway) from Lawrence to Eglinton as the world's largest parking garage which would be used for park and ride on the subway. That seemed like a pretty decent idea, especially since the top of the garage could be built on or it could be parkland, as I think was proposed at the time.

The argument that the line is somehow underused because pedestrians won't walk across a bridge to the stations is a bit ridiculous. Glencairn is about as busy as Chester or Rosedale, so obviously lots of people are walking there. A few more townhouses would have a completely negligible effect on subway ridership.

 

[rpgr]

You guys missed my point. It's because we have such a huge land mass that our major cities are a mess. The huge landmass coupled with with the North American attitude towards needing more space increases sprawl in spite of any planning made. Besides planning is at best a hackjob because what would have been considered far in the past is close now, couple that with being chained by past mistakes and all you get is sprawl.

The arbitrary city politics and borders do nothing to reduce any type os sprawl.

@Unimaginative.

Yes I'm aware of the fact that good planning must be made but how do we know if something like building over a highway is properly done or not?

And yes, something still needs to be done about infrastructure before implementing more buildings.

Right now during rush hour the TTC subway is starting to buckle. In a few more years after the condo boom it'll be murder.

Another argument for decentralization. Not everything needs to be in downtown Toronto.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

Wouldn't increasing frequencies on the line address the capacity issue?

the current AM peak short turn at St Clair West has been looked at to alleviate crowding south of Eglinton West Station. But the only place to do a short turn north of there would be between Glencairn and Lawrence West Station... I did the analysis myself and the cost of extending the short turn to Glencairn did not meet the TTC's financial standard. That being said, when the subway is extended north of Downsview, the short turn will be extended to Downsview, and at this point, I'm sure the financials will make sense. Several trains would have to be added to the YUS during AM peak to extend the short turn, which is why the financials don't make sense.

And the overall frequency issue on the YUS is due to the terminal stations and the time it takes to do a turnback and of course, the bottleneck at Bloor-Yonge Station. With the introduction of Automatic Train Control and the new subway cars, this will allow for both an increase in frequency and increase in per-train capacity -- that is, when the money flows for ATC. Thankfully the new subway cars are a for-sure-go, and will hopefully provide some capacity alleviation.

 

[unimaginative2]

That's the problem with the TTC's financial standards. They never take into account quality of service for existing riders. Sure, eliminating the short turn would cost money and probably not attract that many new riders, but it would make riding a lot more pleasant for the many people who already take the subway and have to pile in until they can't breathe.

 

[dowlingm]

299 - presumably the financials did not assume increased local population? Extending the short turn to Glencairn's turnback track might work if there was the additional customers to back it up, perhaps with a mandatory purchase of metropasses by developers to pass on to owners as part of the deal. There would also be the benefit of providing custom for a full-time 15 and could be fully market value properties.

Ideally, the decking could cover some if not all of the airspace from Viewmount south to Ridelle to connect Viewmount Park to the smaller park on the other side and counterbalance the density increase.

Between Lawrence West and Yorkdale further housing could be constructed as a market/TCHC mix as at Regent Park, which could then be initially used to house relocated residents from buildings being refurbished or demolished rather than displace them all over Toronto into whatever spare rooms TCHC has in the 416. A similar "park connection" could be done between Flemingdon Park and the small park on the west side of the Allen across from it.

 

[MisterF]

You guys missed my point. It's because we have such a huge land mass that our major cities are a mess. The huge landmass coupled with with the North American attitude towards needing more space increases sprawl in spite of any planning made. Besides planning is at best a hackjob because what would have been considered far in the past is close now, couple that with being chained by past mistakes and all you get is sprawl.

The arbitrary city politics and borders do nothing to reduce any type os sprawl.

@Unimaginative.

Yes I'm aware of the fact that good planning must be made but how do we know if something like building over a highway is properly done or not?

And yes, something still needs to be done about infrastructure before implementing more buildings.

Right now during rush hour the TTC subway is starting to buckle. In a few more years after the condo boom it'll be murder.

Another argument for decentralization. Not everything needs to be in downtown Toronto.

No, we didn't miss the point at all. As far as Toronto is concerned we don't have a huge landmass. The size of the Canadian Shield and the Arctic don't affect how Toronto develops - just like the size of the outback doesn't affect Sydney, the size of the Amazon doesn't affect Rio, the size of the Great Basin Desert doesn't affect New York....see my point? In huge countries like ours the big unpopulated areas have nothing to do with how a city in a dense area develops. Besides, more available land doesn't necessarily make a city sprawl. The US is smaller with a lot more people but their cities tend to sprawl more than ours.

Now your point about the North American attitude of needing more space is a valid one.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

299 - presumably the financials did not assume increased local population? Extending the short turn to Glencairn's turnback track might work if there was the additional customers to back it up, perhaps with a mandatory purchase of metropasses by developers to pass on to owners as part of the deal. There would also be the benefit of providing custom for a full-time 15 and could be fully market value properties.

Ideally, the decking could cover some if not all of the airspace from Viewmount south to Ridelle to connect Viewmount Park to the smaller park on the other side and counterbalance the density increase.

Between Lawrence West and Yorkdale further housing could be constructed as a market/TCHC mix as at Regent Park, which could then be initially used to house relocated residents from buildings being refurbished or demolished rather than displace them all over Toronto into whatever spare rooms TCHC has in the 416. A similar "park connection" could be done between Flemingdon Park and the small park on the west side of the Allen across from it.

Well yeah, if there was more people taking the subway north of St Clair West, then it could justify extending the short turn. But just right now, it's not financially feasible, and if this decking over idea has any steam in it, by the time it's done, the short turn would be up to Downsview anyway with the York extension.

 

[Hubotnik]

Quick Question: Why hasn't this subway line lead to the kind of condo and development boom you have next to the Sheppard subway line?

Is it because planners zoned it that way? Or is it because it is seen as less desirable to developpers?

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Quick Question: Why hasn't this subway line lead to the kind of condo and development boom you have next to the Sheppard subway line?

Is it because planners zoned it that way? Or is it because it is seen as less desirable to developpers?

Sheppard has favorable, safer pedestrian crossings and buildings can be constructed with more direct access to the subway than crossing a multilane municipal highway can allot. The area from Fairlawn to Viewpoint along Marlee has a cluster of high rises and Lawrence Square is a very popular mall. Somehow I feel had the builders of the subway made underground access points instead of briging, more people would be inclined to access the line. I don't think there'll be mass development of the lower Allen corridor anytime soon as low-income housing flanks it at all sides (Oakwood, Lawrence Manor). However Yorkdale, Wilson and Downsview have alot of potential once the industries move out and Baycrest area, Wilson Yard/Downsview Park is opened up for development.

 

[rpgr]

You forget that Shepperd runs parallel to the 401. That is very major, I'll leave the reasons as being self-evident as I don't want to repeat what I've said before.

 

[adma]

I'd be very qualified about calling Lawrence Square a "very popular mall"--like York Lanes, it's a well-meaning 80s thing that's survived mainly by being adapted/retrofitted for lower incomes+ a few institutions, service agencies etc...

 

[unimaginative2]

The difference in development is entirely about zoning. The city refused to allow high-density development in that area because it was a stable, low-density residential neighbourhood.

Now, they use the lack of high-density development around subway lines to bash new subway construction. Read the Scarborough RT report. They actually had pages and pages of pictures of the Skytrain running through the densest bits of Vancouver, and it's contrasted with seemingly irrelevant aerial shots of Glencairn station, with the implicit comparison being "RT/LRT=heavy development, Subway=no development," which is absurd for reasons that hardly need explaining.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

They'd need a CityPlace or two at every Spadina line stop to match riders generated by Yorkdale, which was there before the subway line.

 

[CDL.TO]

Have you seen photos of Yorkdale before the subway was built? It was a third the size with twice the parking. A pretty remarkable transformation.