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drum118
Guest
Current plans floated tonight would only see a station at Lawrence and STC. The rest are history if the BD is extended to STC.
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AlvinofDiaspar
Guest
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Darkstar416
Guest
I'm of the belief that an extension of the BD subway will be the ultimate decision (despite numbers that may suggest other options could be better). I really feel anything less will be considered a service "roll-back" on the part of Scarborough residents (and their politicians). Sure, I'm all for LRT's fanning out all over Scarborough, but let's at least get the people to STC first without the dreaded Kennedy transfer.
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samsonyuen
Guest
I agree., I think the passenger numbers warrant at least a subway backbone to Scarborough centre. From then, we can talk about other routes. I guess with Sheppard too, much of Scarborough will be covered.
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The Burgher of TO
Guest
i'm curious, is there anything to prevent the hydro lines along the corridor from being buried at the same time the TTC is doing all its tunnel excavation? it would be amazing if the corridor could be redeveloped into an avenue.
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CapitalSeven
Guest
It seems clear from the responses to the report, not to mention the tub-thumping of the local politicians, that nearly no one is actually going to absorb the analysis or implications of the report, but rather most people are going to continue to call for a subway because, approximately, "it would be so cool to have one."
Evidently either updating the existing RT infrastructure or converting it to LRT would provide enough capacity for a few decades. Building a subway, at two to four times the cost, would eliminate three of the stops on the current line and strand any development that has already occurred there. So little of the capacity of the subway line would be used that surely the TTC would send only every second or third train all the way to STC. If the Sheppard line were also extended, something like 1/6 of the total capacity of the two lines would be in use within the next 25 years.
On the basis of the slide presentation alone, the cost figures for the RT and LRT options appear to include reconfiguring Kennedy for a better connection - possibly platforms at ground or the mezzanine level. This would mitigate much of the dissatisfaction with the current service, as would more frequent and less crowded service.
Can Toronto really afford the big, dumb hammer solution here - 1.2 billion to buy fewer, not more, rapid transit stations? Or might they opt to spend the same pile of cash on a larger flexible LRT network (Malvern, Eglinton to Guildwood, etc. etc.) serving more people who would otherwise continue to rattle around on buses for decades after the two-stop extension sucked every imaginable dime from Scarborough's slice of the pie. (A slice and a pie which have not yet been shown to exist ...)
Evidently either updating the existing RT infrastructure or converting it to LRT would provide enough capacity for a few decades. Building a subway, at two to four times the cost, would eliminate three of the stops on the current line and strand any development that has already occurred there. So little of the capacity of the subway line would be used that surely the TTC would send only every second or third train all the way to STC. If the Sheppard line were also extended, something like 1/6 of the total capacity of the two lines would be in use within the next 25 years.
On the basis of the slide presentation alone, the cost figures for the RT and LRT options appear to include reconfiguring Kennedy for a better connection - possibly platforms at ground or the mezzanine level. This would mitigate much of the dissatisfaction with the current service, as would more frequent and less crowded service.
Can Toronto really afford the big, dumb hammer solution here - 1.2 billion to buy fewer, not more, rapid transit stations? Or might they opt to spend the same pile of cash on a larger flexible LRT network (Malvern, Eglinton to Guildwood, etc. etc.) serving more people who would otherwise continue to rattle around on buses for decades after the two-stop extension sucked every imaginable dime from Scarborough's slice of the pie. (A slice and a pie which have not yet been shown to exist ...)
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unimaginative2
Guest
Yes, but should we really be building a project that will meet capacity for "20 years" once again? Why don't we build something that will last? I don't understand where all these comments about capacity are coming from. Of course the subway isn't going to be full on this three station extension. Obviously if it were already full at Kennedy, nobody would be able to get on at any other station west to Downtown!
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
"It seems clear from the responses to the report, not to mention the tub-thumping of the local politicians, that nearly no one is actually going to absorb the analysis or implications of the report, but rather most people are going to continue to call for a subway because, approximately, "it would be so cool to have one."
Everyone knew what the results of this study would be before it was released...everything in it is obvious. Everyone in Scarborough wants a subway but already realized there's a very good chance it won't happen because of the cost. The study didn't bother to examine how the various options might be paid for, which alignments they might take, what will be done to get people to the subway during construction, what time savings or losses might be expected, etc.
"Evidently either updating the existing RT infrastructure or converting it to LRT would provide enough capacity for a few decades."
And then what, another study? Another orphaned link in the TTC network?
"Building a subway, at two to four times the cost, would eliminate three of the stops on the current line and strand any development that has already occurred there."
This is not an issue. McCowan, Midland, and Ellesmere can afford to be lost since combined, only about 5000 people use them a day, the overwhelming majority of whom are dropped off by cars or buses and who can, therefore, be dropped off at a slightly different location, perhaps even a more accessible location. If the Sheppard line is extended, there will be a stop on Midland two blocks north of Ellesmere, and a STC stop on the B/D line, depending on its alignment, may still serve the area east of McCowan to a reasonable degree. As for development, there hasn't been a heck of a lot aside from STC so practically nothing will be stranded. If the stop at Lawrence is right at or just west of Brimley, it'll be within walking distance of the high-rises at Midland & Lawrence. The townhouses put up at Lawrence and Ellesmere will no longer be right at the RT but will still be a 5 minute bus ride or less away from a subway station which might even save time overall.
"So little of the capacity of the subway line would be used that surely the TTC would send only every second or third train all the way to STC. If the Sheppard line were also extended, something like 1/6 of the total capacity of the two lines would be in use within the next 25 years."
Are there any subway lines in the world that are at crush load capacity at terminus stations even during rush hour? Maybe Tokyo? I find the ridership forecast for 2021 to be low - Councillor Thompson seemed to to, as well.
"On the basis of the slide presentation alone, the cost figures for the RT and LRT options appear to include reconfiguring Kennedy for a better connection - possibly platforms at ground or the mezzanine level. This would mitigate much of the dissatisfaction with the current service, as would more frequent and less crowded service."
Soberman implied that one level between the subway and the RT replacement might be removed and that escalator/stair placement would be rejigged no matter what option is picked. It would make the service less awful, sure, but it still wouldn't be good. I'd still avoid it whenever possible.
"1.2 billion to buy fewer, not more, rapid transit stations"
The reduction in the number of stations is only an issue to, literally, a couple of hundred people.
"Or might they opt to spend the same pile of cash on a larger flexible LRT network"
If that's what will happen, we should propose $10 billion worth of new subways in Scarborough and then demand the difference for other projects.
Everyone knew what the results of this study would be before it was released...everything in it is obvious. Everyone in Scarborough wants a subway but already realized there's a very good chance it won't happen because of the cost. The study didn't bother to examine how the various options might be paid for, which alignments they might take, what will be done to get people to the subway during construction, what time savings or losses might be expected, etc.
"Evidently either updating the existing RT infrastructure or converting it to LRT would provide enough capacity for a few decades."
And then what, another study? Another orphaned link in the TTC network?
"Building a subway, at two to four times the cost, would eliminate three of the stops on the current line and strand any development that has already occurred there."
This is not an issue. McCowan, Midland, and Ellesmere can afford to be lost since combined, only about 5000 people use them a day, the overwhelming majority of whom are dropped off by cars or buses and who can, therefore, be dropped off at a slightly different location, perhaps even a more accessible location. If the Sheppard line is extended, there will be a stop on Midland two blocks north of Ellesmere, and a STC stop on the B/D line, depending on its alignment, may still serve the area east of McCowan to a reasonable degree. As for development, there hasn't been a heck of a lot aside from STC so practically nothing will be stranded. If the stop at Lawrence is right at or just west of Brimley, it'll be within walking distance of the high-rises at Midland & Lawrence. The townhouses put up at Lawrence and Ellesmere will no longer be right at the RT but will still be a 5 minute bus ride or less away from a subway station which might even save time overall.
"So little of the capacity of the subway line would be used that surely the TTC would send only every second or third train all the way to STC. If the Sheppard line were also extended, something like 1/6 of the total capacity of the two lines would be in use within the next 25 years."
Are there any subway lines in the world that are at crush load capacity at terminus stations even during rush hour? Maybe Tokyo? I find the ridership forecast for 2021 to be low - Councillor Thompson seemed to to, as well.
"On the basis of the slide presentation alone, the cost figures for the RT and LRT options appear to include reconfiguring Kennedy for a better connection - possibly platforms at ground or the mezzanine level. This would mitigate much of the dissatisfaction with the current service, as would more frequent and less crowded service."
Soberman implied that one level between the subway and the RT replacement might be removed and that escalator/stair placement would be rejigged no matter what option is picked. It would make the service less awful, sure, but it still wouldn't be good. I'd still avoid it whenever possible.
"1.2 billion to buy fewer, not more, rapid transit stations"
The reduction in the number of stations is only an issue to, literally, a couple of hundred people.
"Or might they opt to spend the same pile of cash on a larger flexible LRT network"
If that's what will happen, we should propose $10 billion worth of new subways in Scarborough and then demand the difference for other projects.
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DarnDirtyApe
Guest
All of the discussion about capacity ignores the fact that we need to convince people to take transit by making the ride fast and convenient. We need a subway extension because it will provide a huge improvement for anyone going downtown (i.e., most people) which cannot be provided for by LRT.
A subway station at STC will improve the travel times for all of the people who previously took a bus to the RT and transferred to the subway, or took a longer bus trip to avoid the RT. Any proposal that doesn't cut down on the number of transfers will have trouble providing quick enough travel times to entice more people to use transit.
A subway station at STC will improve the travel times for all of the people who previously took a bus to the RT and transferred to the subway, or took a longer bus trip to avoid the RT. Any proposal that doesn't cut down on the number of transfers will have trouble providing quick enough travel times to entice more people to use transit.
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Suicidal Gingerbread Man
Guest
I agree with much of the sentiment about the need for a subway. I hate the idea of "the best we can do with the budgetary constraints." Being satisfied with half measures is getting ridiculous. If we can't do it, how can any other country in the world do it?
I've lived and worked in developing countries before where they have serious debates. Now THEY have serious budgetary constraints.
Whatever happened to investment in the future?
I've lived and worked in developing countries before where they have serious debates. Now THEY have serious budgetary constraints.
Whatever happened to investment in the future?
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
Hell, I won't even use the subway since I won't even be living in Scarborough when it opens (if I am, someone please come over and shoot me), but I'd support a property tax increase to help pay for it.
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Suicidal Gingerbread Man
Guest
Is it that bad being miketoronto's neighbour?
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Ed007Toronto
Guest
Build it as a subway. Imagine what NYCC would look like today if you took the subway to Eglinton and then had to switch to LRT to get to Sheppard or Finch.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
^ It would look like Scarborough.
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maxy505
Guest
Not everybody is going downtown! Many people both live AND work, or go to school, all within Scarborough. Spending $1.2 billion on that one route isn't the best option.
Of course the pols won't just hand over the difference between subway and LRT costs, but it'll work out to the same thing anyways if Scarborough is denied money for the next 20 years because we just had our turn. In the end, every area of Toronto (and to a lesser degree the GTA) is going to have a similar amount of money spent on it, because that's what politicians do.
So consider spending $1 billion on LRT. Line A will go from the mezzanine at Kennedy -- only 1 quick escalator ride from the subway -- out to Markham and Sheppard. Right there you've made the total trip downtown faster for people in Malvern, and not much worse for everybody else. Plus the majority of people who AREN'T going downtown will benefit.
Line B goes east (and maybe west) along Eglinton. Now the other half of Scarborough (south half) is benefitting as well, both for going downtown or intra-borough travel.
Line C - I dunno, maybe BRT across the top? Probably one of you can think of a better idea.
If you still want to get your subway on don't sweat it -- the Sheppard stub is still waiting. There's no way we'll get 2 subways before 40 years is up, so just focus on one. Although come to think of it, Sheppard is perfect for LRT... (drooling) so wide.... agghhghg
Of course the pols won't just hand over the difference between subway and LRT costs, but it'll work out to the same thing anyways if Scarborough is denied money for the next 20 years because we just had our turn. In the end, every area of Toronto (and to a lesser degree the GTA) is going to have a similar amount of money spent on it, because that's what politicians do.
So consider spending $1 billion on LRT. Line A will go from the mezzanine at Kennedy -- only 1 quick escalator ride from the subway -- out to Markham and Sheppard. Right there you've made the total trip downtown faster for people in Malvern, and not much worse for everybody else. Plus the majority of people who AREN'T going downtown will benefit.
Line B goes east (and maybe west) along Eglinton. Now the other half of Scarborough (south half) is benefitting as well, both for going downtown or intra-borough travel.
Line C - I dunno, maybe BRT across the top? Probably one of you can think of a better idea.
If you still want to get your subway on don't sweat it -- the Sheppard stub is still waiting. There's no way we'll get 2 subways before 40 years is up, so just focus on one. Although come to think of it, Sheppard is perfect for LRT... (drooling) so wide.... agghhghg