$6 Million for new Subway EA's

[roch5220]

Most people still have to plough through traffic to drive there, nevermind find a parking spot. If you don't work 9-5, you're out of luck. If you don't have a car, you're out of luck. Also what about all the people from elsewhere in the GTA going to work in Mississauga? This isn't Oakville we're talking about here.

Well, we are talking about the 9-5 commutte, as thats when the peak demand that has to be filled. If you live in Missy without a car, then generally, you are out of luck on many things as most things are not within walking distance, and luging your groceries onto buses is very unpleasant. A lot of people do work in Missy who do not live there, but, there is no feasible solution to bring rapid transit, other than buses, other than the usual couple of corridors like hwy 10 that could sustain it. Secondly, employment in mississauga is sprawled all over the place, with no high concentration like in central Toronto. When you talk about rapid transit serving within 905, you don;t have enough people going the same direction to warrant it. If you want to live the lifestyle of downtown, then move and work downtown.

 

[Suicidal Gingerbread Man]

I agree with much of the sentiment already expressed about the subway pushing its way into low-density suburbs. It makes no sense, and it doesn't support smart growth in areas closer to downtown, such as Eglinton. If you look at the subway plans, it looks a lot more like a commuter rail like GO rather than a citywide grid.

Message to the TTC - there already is a commuter rail service. Its called GO.

 

[roch5220]

And it isn't just about commuting, which everyone seems to forget. What about the weekend when people just want to go out or shopping somewhere without worrying about when the Gardiner's closed? What about the economic benefits of that local/regional mobility to the GTA as a whole?

Ok, the odd weekend the gardiner is closed, there might be a capacity problem which is simply addressed by adding more service. Other than that, a commutter train going every hour is more than enough to meet demand. If someone can't time their trip to be at the station by a certian time, then that is definately not a transit issue.

I am all for regional integration via a cheaper tech like LRT, which plans have been submitted, and rejected like the SmartRide LRT plan. The plan has already been submitted on this site before, but I think it maybe new to you so here it is.
www.lea.ca/services/pdf/2...20toronto'

A plan like this, you get a better bang for your buck building LRT, which cost back in 2002 around $2.5 billion, vs spending $ 1billion just for an MCC subway extension, when there is no guarantee that the ridership will be there.

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

Suburban rail isn't some sort of inferior product that some people seem to think it is, it's far better than subways when applied as it should be!

I think of the best examples in Canada right now of the potential of LRT is the O-Train. I wont make any arguments in favour of the practical usefullness of the current line because it is limited, as it was intended to be given it was designated a pilot project. But there are a lot of elements in that line that showcase some of the benefits.

1 - The trains. The Talents are, at least my own opinion, the most comfortable transit vehicles being used in Canada right now. They ride well, have excellent access for wheelchairs and bicycles, lots of standing room, and the sets are comfy enough for 30 or 40 minute trips with leg room (a plus for tall people used to cramped bus seats). The exterior design is rather stylish and inside they are rather plain, but still easy on the eyes.

2 - Efficient for mid distance travel. An LRT line that is largely in its own right of way has the potential to be competetive with the car in terms of how quickly one can make the trip. Most train sets have good top speeds and acceleration and with stops a few kilometers away they can move through a network at a more than acceptable speed. Compare a trip from Bayview to South Keys by car or by bus and not including wait times the LRT line would probably have the advantage (even with wait time it would still be competetive and a more than viable option).

3 - They are not underground. Maybe its my own personal preference, but I prefer travelling above ground as opposed through dark subway and metro tunnels, especially over long distances. Having your car flooded with natural light as opposed to flourescents does make the trip more comfortable. Not to mention that above ground, one can get a view of the city that is going by outside. Even waiting outside, especially on a lovely day (such as today) can make a trip just a bit more pleasant. And again, a personal preference, but, I do tend to find that a well designed LRT line with stations that are integrated into the neighborhood can actually add to a neighborhood and its urban qualities, not detract from it as some might think a rail line might.

4 - Cost. I dont have exact numbers or maps in front of me but if you compare what Ottawa will gain with its near 1 billion dollar investment and Toronto with its 1 billion dollar plus investment, I would say that Ottawa is making a much smarter investment. If Toronto were to take the same amount it is investing in subways over the next few years, and put it towards developing an O-Train style LRT network, I think many would surprised at just how much could be built and what kind of value it would have in increasing the efficiency and capacity of the TTC network.

 

[doady]

I don't know how people can say that simply providing GO train service to MCC is good enough, especially that the busiest transit corridor in Mississauga (and in the 905) is Hurontario, which runs in north-south direction rather than east-west, and does not connect to the TTC at all. Expanded commuter train service will not be good enough for Mississauga.

MCC is around the same distance from downtown as SCC is. Just build an Eglinton subway all the way to MCC, with the portion in Mississauga entirely above ground so cost will not be an issue.

Eventually, the Bloor-Danforth subway should be extended to Sherway and then along Dundas to Hurontario, which should have its own subway line as well.

 

[roch5220]

I don't think that people are saying that the current day GO service is good enough for the future - but - to improve transit for Mississauga, that GO service should be improved or atleast rethought - which it already is being done.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If Malvern must have rapid transit, build the Midtown GO line - with stations at Markham and Finch and Brimley and Sheppard, virtually everyone in northeast Scarborough could get from their front door to Summerhill station in just over 30 minutes.

For the cost of any single one of these proposed subway extensions, couldn't we get 30 minutes or better service both ways all day on every GO line?

 

[ahrvojic]

roch5220:

If someone can't time their trip to be at the station by a certian time, then that is definately not a transit issue.

But it's definitely a quality of life issue. Living on the GO schedule really sucks, which is why I recently switched to a GTA pass even if it takes longer to get home at night (better than wasting an hour waiting at Union). It's much cheaper too, but even that aside, the freedom to come and go as I please has been worth the extra travel time so far.

I am all for regional integration via a cheaper tech like LRT, which plans have been submitted, and rejected like the SmartRide LRT plan. The plan has already been submitted on this site before, but I think it maybe new to you so here it is.

Thanks for the link! I haven't seen that plan before and I'll take a closer look later even though the line going through MCC goes northeast instead of downtown And just to reiterate, I'm not saying the solution absolutely has to be a subway from MCC, but we do need a proper rapid link to the existing system. A north-south line on Hurontario won't cut it alone.

doady:

MCC is around the same distance from downtown as SCC is.

It's amazing what a different area code does to perceptions of distance.

 

[cdl42]

Antiloop33rpm,
I don't disagree with what you are saying, but would just point out that I was referring to suburban rail, not light rail.

"MCC is around the same distance from downtown as SCC is."

Not really. SCC is around 17km from Union while MCC is around 22. That's 30% further. MCC is about the same as Malvern centre or the furthest northwestern tip of Etobicoke.

 

[samsonyuen]

Re: Sheppard West extension to Downsview, Scarborough lines

Sheppard West would be a good idea, though wouldn't it get more people onto Yonge than it would for people to get onto Spadina?

Here's an article from the Scarborough Mirror:
From: www.insidetoronto.ca/to/s...carborough
_____________________________
Scarborough councillors push for two subway assessments
One provided for in recent provincial budget

DAVID NICKLE
Apr. 20, 2006

The $1 million set aside for studying the environmental impact of a new subway in Scarborough is a good start - but this week the Toronto Transit Commission put the province on notice that it's expecting to be looking at not one but two new subways, and doing so will cost six times that amount.
"As is noted in the provincial budget, they referred to $1 million for a Scarborough subway but there are two potential subways - one to replace the SRT, and one is the extension of Sheppard," said commissioner Brian Ashton, who represents Ward 36 (Scarborough Southwest).

"I wanted to advise the province that $1 million is a good start but depending on the timing it could cost much more than that."

The provincial budget unveiled this spring set aside major cash for subways in Toronto, kick-starting the $1.5-billion expansion of the Spadina subway through York University and into Vaughan.

But politicians in Scarborough have been lobbying for two other expansions - one that would see the Sheppard subway extended from Don Mills Road to the Scarborough Town Centre, and another that would replace the outmoded, worn-down Scarborough RT from Kennedy Station to McCowan Road and beyond.

It's estimated that an environmental assessment for both of those projects - neither of which are funded in and of themselves - would cost a total of $6 million.

Commissioner Glenn de Baeremaeker, who represents Ward 38 (Scarborough Centre) on Toronto Council, helped craft the motion.

"The province is doing a wonderful thing saying we recognize that Scarborough needs a subway and here's a million dollars to get the ball rolling," he said.

"My reaction is that Scarborough doesn't need one subway, Scarborough needs two subways."

 

[Brighter Hell]

Re: Sheppard West extension to Downsview, Scarborough lines

why aren't the downtown councillors making the same kind of noise the suburban councillors are?

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but would just point out that I was referring to suburban rail, not light rail.

I know. I suppose I shouldnt have said LRT which might imply something along the lines of streetcars or SRT. The main aspect of the O-Train I was trying to point out is the efficiency it will/can have at delivering people from suburban areas to the downtown core and the current use of Talents as the vehicle of choice. Germany's S-Bahn is a far better example of the type of system I think would work well for Toronto, but I wanted to try to illustrate it with a Canadian example. Perhaps another example of what I was thinking could also be the Deux-Montagne line in Montreal (or the new Masscouche line). Something that is of larger fleet and more capacity than LRT's, but not as large as GO and its fleet of Bi-Level coaches.

 

[unimaginative2]

Message to the TTC - there already is a commuter rail service. Its called GO.

I completely agree. That's why they have to come to some kind of co-operative agreement. GO isn't technically allowed to provide routes designed to serve residents of the City of Toronto, and the TTC doesn't even try to time its buses to meet GO trains. That needs to be remedied first before we can even dream of a GO rapid transit system.

I think that downtown councillors have completely bought into the arguments of the anti-subway lobby, while suburban councillors still believe in them. That's why we get little streetcar extensions through dense downtown neighbourhoods, and massive subways through single family homes and vacant lots. It's also likely a force of habit, since the old Metro official plan specifically prohibited new rapid transit into downtown, since all new growth was to be centred in the suburban city centres.

 

[doady]

Not really. SCC is around 17km from Union while MCC is around 22. That's 30% further. MCC is about the same as Malvern centre or the furthest northwestern tip of Etobicoke.

That isn't really much difference at all. Most importantly, Scarborough and Mississauga themselves aren't much different from each other. And you can't compare either Malvern or Rexdale to MCC because they are at the fringe while MCC is the transit hub of Mississauga and a major destination. Malvern is more like Meadowvale, at the urban fringe of the GTA.

 

[samsonyuen]

Re: SCC vs. MCC

Mississauga is still more sprawled than its Scarborough cousin. They're along the same lines, but not the same.