$6 Million for new Subway EA's

[poomar]

Re: SCC vs. MCC

well when subways cost 200 million a kilometre, i'd say that $1 billion dollars is quite the difference.

as to the posts about netoworks like the RER: it actually boggles my mind why we don't have a system like that here. but remember that the RER is actually the Parisian interpretation of New York's express trains whilst in the periphique. They run underground, stop less, cost the same as the metro with full intergration and carry twice the volume of people, at least! A network like that would be even more than plain vanilla subway expansion. I think a more appropriate solution is actually what AreBe was suggesting all along: electrify the GO line and increase the service...

 

[ahrvojic]

Re: SCC vs. MCC

I think a more appropriate solution is actually what AreBe was suggesting all along: electrify the GO line and increase the service...

Eliminating GO's dependency on CN tracks would be a start. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand cargo always takes priority over commuters and that's the main barrier to better service on lines like Milton. Sharing the rails with cargo trains I believe also limits vehicle options due to safety regulations.

 

[ahrvojic]

Re: SCC vs. MCC

Mississauga is still more sprawled than its Scarborough cousin. They're along the same lines, but not the same.

Perhaps that's true, but it's not like we're asking for a rapid transit link to go all over Mississauga; just to MCC. Mississauga can take care of LRT and bus routes itself for other areas.

A rapid transit network going to SCC and Vaughan but not Square One makes no sense to me.

 

[dashingdan]

Re: SCC vs. MCC

The lack of any talk about a subway to MCC is likely due to Hazel's distaste for subways. She knows that they're not very cost-effective, especially for the suburbs. That and an anti-Toronto bias, not wanting TTC subways in Mississauga I imagine.

A lot of it is politics. A subway to Vaughan is the last place a subway should be built. I'm sure dozens of better deserving places could be thought of, like downtown, where subways SHOULD be.

 

[doady]

Here's a map I made of possible subway lines in Mississauga

 

[samsonyuen]

That's quite a few stations in Mississauga. I can see it going to MCC and maybe Pearson someday, but the distances between stations in the above map is almost bus-like!

 

[samsonyuen]

Re: B-D Scarborough Subway extension

From: www.insidetoronto.ca/to/s...carborough
__________________________________
Scarborough subway would cost more than $1 billion
Report on future of LRT to be released at Monday night meeting

DAVID NICKLe
Apr. 21, 2006

Replacing the Scarborough Rapid Transit line with a subway will be costly, take years to build and result in the closure of three stations currently serviced by the aging rail link between Kennedy Station and McCowan Road.
That is the gist of a technical report on the future of the SRT train line, to be unveiled publicly at the Scarborough Civic Centre this Monday night.

The report comes from transit consultant Richard Soberman, who was hired by the TTC to help plan for the eventual demise of the SRT. Replacing the line is a problem because the company that built the miniature cars in 1978 is defunct.

When the TTC embarked on the planning exercise on what to do with the 43,000 daily riders that take the SRT now, politicians from Scarborough were quick to begin promoting the high-end option of replacing the line with a regular subway tunnel.

But according to Ward 36 Councillor Brian Ashton (Scarborough Southwest), who as a TTC commissioner was briefed on the report Friday, it's not as simple as that.

The report puts a price tag of $1.2 billion on creating a subway, and is unable to project exactly how long it would take to build it. The mostly-surface route that the SRT takes now would not work if it were to link up with the existing track system, meaning that the project would have to be underground.

And in order to conform with the rest of the system, the six current stations along the route would have to be reduced to just three.

That would mean that communities that had built up around those stations would find themselves deprived of easy access to the subway system, on which they'd come to depend.

"I knew I was asking for the moon and was prepared to consider the outcome of the report," said Ashton. "But from a political point of view, I hate it when damn logic gets in the way of political decisions."

Ashton said that the report pointed to other options as being more viable, but still costly. Replacing the line with streetcar-style Light Rapid Transit would cost a total of $650 million and take 36 months to implement. The least costly option would involve ordering new, purpose-built cars for the existing system, dealing with the over-capacity issues by either increasing the number of cars on each train - a move that would necessitate increasing the lengths of some platforms - or simply increasing the frequency of the trains.

That option would cost about $350 million, and take 18 months to implement.

The report also talks about extending the system to Markham Road and Sheppard Avenue - a move that, said Ashton, TTC staff believe would dramatically increase ridership.

Ashton said that what he's seen may make it more difficult to support a subway - but he said that the report has some political value as a way to argue for improved services for Scarborough in other areas.

"I think we need to talk trade," he said. "We need to see what Scarborough's needs are in the broad transit planning picture - but with the one caveat, that Scarborough does not want to be short-transited and short-changed. But I'm not going to be a fool and spend money foolishly either."

Ward 37 Councillor Michael Thompson (Scarborough Centre), however, said that he's not willing to let go of the idea of a subway.

"I think the residents of Scarborough are very well worth spending a billion dollars on," said Thompson, who chairs the Scarborough Community Council.

"I think there's a big issue that people seem to worry about money for Scarborough when there is a huge need to extend transit here. The RT now doesn't provide the utility it needs to provide to residents and clearly we need to think towards the future growth in Scarborough."

Scarborough residents can see the details of the report for themselves Monday, April 24 at the Scarborough Civic Centre. The presentation starts at 7 p.m.; discussion will follow.

The Civic Centre is at 150 Borough Drive.

 

[rbtaylor]

Re: B-D Scarborough Subway extension

Ridership numbers from the "Complete TTC Subway Station Ridership":

Kennedy RT 37,819
Lawrence East RT 9,523
Ellesmere RT 1,712
Midland RT 4,092
Scarborough Centre RT 26,824
McCowan RT 4,410

Dropping the bottom 3 performing stations doesn't seem like that much of a loss. New stations in well placed locations would achieve similar if not much better ridership.

McCowan is close enough to SCC that a well placed station could cover both SCC and McCowan.

Lawrence is probably mostly transfers from the bus route.

 

[EnviroTO]

Re: B-D Scarborough Subway extension

If the subway shouldn't be extended from Kennedy to SCC then the Sheppard line should not be extended either. There is little chance that the ridership from SCC to Kennedy heading towards downtown would ever be less than the ridership from SCC to Don Mills heading towards NYCC. If the ridership will always be greater SCC to Kennedy than SCC to Don Mills then the infrastructure should always be greater from SCC to Kennedy shouldn't it? If they are going to keep SCC to Kennedy as an LRT then perhaps the Sheppard subway should be converted to use LRT equipment so future extensions to the line can be LRT.

 

[Darkstar416]

Re: Sheppard West extension to Downsview, Scarborough lines

why aren't the downtown councillors making the same kind of noise the suburban councillors are?

Something I've never really understood either.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"Dropping the bottom 3 performing stations doesn't seem like that much of a loss. New stations in well placed locations would achieve similar if not much better ridership."

Midland/Ellesmere only performs poorly because they put two stations right next to each other and the Ellesmere bus doesn't connect with Ellesmere station. A combined station with proper bus connections to the 57 and the 95 could easily see 15,000 riders a day. If they ran a bus straight to UTSC from there, it might be over 20,000. However, the subway would have to follow the RT's path for this theoretical station to exist - since they're predicting 3 stations, that means they're planning on following the rail corridor, going through Brimley & Lawrence, and approaching STC from the south...a huge mistake.

"McCowan is close enough to SCC that a well placed station could cover both SCC and McCowan."

The station must go pretty much exactly where the STC RT station is - at least an exit of one end of the platform, anyway. The mall depends on the traffic and the mega bus terminal is already there. Best case scenario, the western exit of the station is where the bridge to the mall is now, and the eastern exit is on the other side of McCowan - I don't know if it'll stretch this far though. It'd be nice to connect the east and west sides of McCowan better. I'm dying to know what they plan to do with Kennedy station and STC RT station (the cost of rebuilding the bus terminals, realigning the stations, etc).

"Lawrence is probably mostly transfers from the bus route."

So are most other stations on the other subway lines in this city.

 

[rbtaylor]

"Lawrence is probably mostly transfers from the bus route."

So are most other stations on the other subway lines in this city.

I did not intend to imply otherwise. I meant that the station could be moved east a block or two with pretty little impact to most of the users.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

^ True; actually, the farther east it is, perhaps the better for riders of the 54, and, therefore, the majority of people who will use the Lawrence East subway station (while most subway stations are filled by bus riders, this is particularly true for Lawrence). A stop at McCowan could save the bus riders up to 5 minutes per trip. Lawrence Ave. is fascinatingly congested between Kennedy and the DVP during rush hour and I assume this spills east a certain distance as well, slowing down the 54 - the westbound buses always arrive at Lawrence East station late.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

Midland/Ellesmere only performs poorly because they put two stations right next to each other and the Ellesmere bus doesn't connect with Ellesmere station. A combined station with proper bus connections to the 57 and the 95 could easily see 15,000 riders a day. If they ran a bus straight to UTSC from there, it might be over 20,000. However, the subway would have to follow the RT's path for this theoretical station to exist - since they're predicting 3 stations, that means they're planning on following the rail corridor, going through Brimley & Lawrence, and approaching STC from the south...a huge mistake.

Actually, the Star seems to imply that the subway option only includes an intermediate stop at Lawrence, and that this new station would not be in the same place as the existing one. My personal bet is that it'll be located either at Brimley or McCowan. I would prefer McCowan because Lawrance & Brimley is surrounded by giant power lines, but it probably makes the most sense to follow the old railway line via Brimley as that's the most direct route to STC.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"Actually, the Star seems to imply that the subway option only includes an intermediate stop at Lawrence, and that this new station would not be in the same place as the existing one. My personal bet is that it'll be located either at Brimley or McCowan. I would prefer McCowan because Lawrance & Brimley is surrounded by giant power lines, but it probably makes the most sense to follow the old railway line via Brimley as that's the most direct route to STC."

Actually, the three stops includes Kennedy, Lawrence (& Brimley) and STC (where exactly in STC, who knows). McCowan would be better than Brimley but Midland might be better than McCowan. The rail line was sold off years ago and is now filled with single family homes - of course, they're going to tunnel bore the entire thing so this doesn't matter, anyway.