$6 Million for new Subway EA's

[unimaginative2]

I should make it clear that I'm not at all opposed to the Sheppard extension. I just think that it should go to STC where it can connect with a major trip generator and most of the bus routes in Scarborough. Why go to Markham and Sheppard for a terminal when you have a perfect terminal at STC?

It seems to me like Malvern would be a great place for a streetcar right of way or at least a busway. Higher order transit is fine, but definitely not something as massive and expensive as a subway, which would inevitably be completely tunneled as seems to be TTC practice.

 

[roch5220]

I'm generally not a fan of subway routes going outside of 416, and even think the YorkU extension (even forgeting about the VCC) being a stretch. I hope there comes a time when politicans focus on LRT. Finish the Sheppard line to STC, and then when demand warrants, sprout regional LRT lines from transit hubs like STC. In addition, focus on increasing GO capacity/routes. Subway extentions to MCC and Pickering would be the next downsview stations in waiting.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Actually I would think that a subway extension to MCC would have good ridership, cost issues aside, since a good number of the routes from Square One terminates in Islington. That said, there are far more worthy projects to pursue than that.

AoD

 

[roch5220]

Ah, but would a MCC station extension canablize from the nearby 3 GO stations, plus impede GO capital initiatives for Lakeshore west? I am quite a fan of their 'near subway like frequencies' proposals for that route, so long as they build parking garages at existing GO stations. MCC is already well served via nearby GO stations.

 

[ahrvojic]

MCC is already well served via nearby GO stations.

Heh, I respectfully disagree. One-way infrequent rush hour trains that cost a small fortune to ride for a relatively short distance is far from well served. Cooksville station itself is also fairly distant from Square One and the main MT terminal, nevermind the traffic congestion on Hurontario.

I also wouldn't count Erindale and Dixie stations as being nearby.

Maybe the GO is great for Hamilton and Barrie, but Mississauga is basically Toronto (no matter what Hazel says) and should be treated as such.

 

[Brighter Hell]

i too am sometimes mystified at the TTC's focus on suburban subways. i don't buy the argument of "densifying" suburban areas or "getting people out of their cars". the former relies on spending billions on massive rail systems to create housing demand that doesn't currently exist. to me that seems counterproductive and wasteful. the latter rewards people who drive and punishes existing riders who live the urban lifestyle the city promotes. again, counterproductive and wasteful.

why are subways being built in places that might conceivably have demand at some point in the future when there are so many areas that have demand now?

 

[Brighter Hell]

Heh, I respectfully disagree. One-way infrequent rush hour trains that cost a small fortune to ride for a relatively short distance is far from well served. Cooksville station itself is also fairly distant from Square One and the main MT terminal, nevermind the traffic congestion on Hurontario.

maybe, but there's no reason rapid transit can't be brought to MCC without relying on subways. IMO, the whole GO model needs to be rethought, at least on certain lines. something like sydney's cityrail could bring real rapid transit to places like MCC without the needless expense of a subway.

 

[TdotTrickyRicky]

My suggestion is just get it done. We can discuss which route or priority is best all day but the only thing I can guarantee is that even the boondoogle subway expansion of today will pay infinite dividends for future generations be it immediate, 10, 20, 50 0r 100 years in the future. Something like a subway is a long term inter-generational commitment that cannot be analyzed strictly in the hear and now. For instance current traffic conditions will be exponentially worse by the time they will potentially get shovels in the ground. The only reason we hesitate to invest in such infrastructure is that contempory society is so firmly a culture of me, me, me.

 

[roch5220]

Heh, I respectfully disagree. One-way infrequent rush hour trains that cost a small fortune to ride for a relatively short distance is far from well served. Cooksville station itself is also fairly distant from Square One and the main MT terminal, nevermind the traffic congestion on Hurontario.

Quite frankly, if you are taking mass transit from MCC to downtown, you should be paying a small fortune.

MCC is well served as the surronding Cooksville and Erindale stations focus on rush hour, with combination with Port Credit, MCC is very well served during peak times. I havn;t heard to many complaints regarding GO from MCC except for people not being able to get seats.

The traffic congestion on hwy10 can be dealt with the new LRT line. Even building a subway to MCC isn't going to relieve this congestion. During peak times, do you really think people will take the subway vs the 20 minute express train from Port Credit?

But the key is what was just said, GO does need to be rethought. I do like their plans for the 'near subway like' frequencies.

 

[Sir Novelty Fashion]

Stepping back a bit in the discussion (sorry I lapsed) -

Scarb:

Sheppard is already starting to be Avenue-ized.

Thing is, Sheppard *isn't* starting to be Avenue-ized. It's getting CityPlaced. The subway encourages massive developments at the nodes, which back onto little detached bungalows. It doesn't promote uniform densification.

Right now you've got a billion-dollar subway that's running four-car trains half-empty at *peak times* (this comes direct from the TTC), while the local residents are screaming blue murder about developments that haven't even been built yet.

And even when they are built, they're still going to be essentially suburban in nature; their residents are going to be car-dependent for daily needs, even though they're sitting on a half-empty subway.

Of course there's a NIMBY element to the local complaints, but there are indications that this whole misbegotten plan of Mel's is stretching the local infrastructure too far, too fast. As one city councillor says, this line should have been built on Eglinton, where the neighborhood was better prepared.

In the meantime, I'm starting to buy more and more into the idea that was in vogue last year (how fast things change!) when subway extensions were being pooh-poohed by everyone from Miller on down, in favour of streetcar ROWs. Done right, they might stand a chance of promoting those Bedford Avenues we all seem to want...

 

[unimaginative2]

Right now you've got a billion-dollar subway that's running four-car trains half-empty at *peak times* (this comes direct from the TTC),

In what report does the TTC say this? It goes against any experience I've ever had riding the line, and I used to ride it at peak times most weekdays.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"Thing is, Sheppard *isn't* starting to be Avenue-ized. It's getting CityPlaced. The subway encourages massive developments at the nodes, which back onto little detached bungalows. It doesn't promote uniform densification."

I was talking about Sheppard West - it is clearly being Avenue-ized between Yonge and Downsview. Wherever low-rise buildings haven't been built yet, the bugalows have been taken over by lawyers and doctors and turned into small offices.

"Right now you've got a billion-dollar subway that's running four-car trains half-empty at *peak times* (this comes direct from the TTC)"

The same TTC/media quotes that have been churned out since the day after it opened. Depending on the timing of connecting bus routes and the Yonge line, the trains are often at an overflowing crush load capacity during rush hour. It may not be consistently busy enough yet to warrant 6 car trains, but they're definitely following their mantra of let routes' ridership grow until they're as "artificially" crowded as possible due to cost-recovery constraints and then increase frequency/capacity only when people are *this* close away from avoiding the route altogether.

 

[Sir Novelty Fashion]

I believe the metric used was the loading of trains as versus the current capacity of four-car trains. The TTC said that trains were 55% full in the morning peak, and 50% full in the afternoon peak.

I was talking about Sheppard West - it is clearly being Avenue-ized between Yonge and Downsview.

Ah - okay then.

 

[ahrvojic]

Brighter Hell:

maybe, but there's no reason rapid transit can't be brought to MCC without relying on subways. IMO, the whole GO model needs to be rethought, at least on certain lines. something like sydney's cityrail could bring real rapid transit to places like MCC without the needless expense of a subway.

Agreed, it doesn't have to be a subway underground the whole way; rapidity, frequency, all-day bidirectionality and connectivity to the TTC are the fundamental requirements. But is S-bahn-type transit really that much cheaper than a subway? A lot of land would still need to be obtained, existing infrastructure moved, new bridges built, etc. It still seems to be essentially the same thing to me since we'd be starting from scratch anyway.


roch5220:

MCC is well served as the surronding Cooksville and Erindale stations focus on rush hour, with combination with Port Credit, MCC is very well served during peak times. I havn;t heard to many complaints regarding GO from MCC except for people not being able to get seats.

Most people still have to plough through traffic to drive there, nevermind find a parking spot. If you don't work 9-5, you're out of luck. If you don't have a car, you're out of luck. Also what about all the people from elsewhere in the GTA going to work in Mississauga? This isn't Oakville we're talking about here.

And it isn't just about commuting, which everyone seems to forget. What about the weekend when people just want to go out or shopping somewhere without worrying about when the Gardiner's closed? What about the economic benefits of that local/regional mobility to the GTA as a whole?

he traffic congestion on hwy10 can be dealt with the new LRT line. Even building a subway to MCC isn't going to relieve this congestion. During peak times, do you really think people will take the subway vs the 20 minute express train from Port Credit?

Yes, I'm looking forward to a Hurontario LRT, but it's still not that great without a Dundas line going to Kipling or something. I'm not really concerned with relieving congestion in this case, rather connectivity to the TTC. Again, the express train is not a solution since it's a one-way, rush hour service and I doubt GO can offer subway-like service on CN tracks. Lakeshore is far from central to the city as well.

 

[cdl42]

We really need to get over our obsession with subways. They serve a specialised purpose: short to medium-distance trips in dense urban settings.

Mississauga, Rexdale, and Malvern aren't dense urban settings with lots of local trips to serve, they're suburbs. Therefore the mode best suited to the area is suburban rail. When you sit in a subway seat, do you really think "Wow! This is the apex of comfort! This is perfect for long-distance travel!"?

Suburban rail isn't some sort of inferior product that some people seem to think it is, it's far better than subways when applied as it should be! It's faster and more comfortable and much, much cheaper to build. This makes it able to cover large areas at a reasonable cost, we'll never be able to serve the transit needs of the GTA is we keep trying to build subways everywhere.

Take a look at the Paris Metro map and you'll notice that the system hardly ever leaves the inner city. But they have the extensive RER system (plus suburban trains) to serve the burbs.

A few points from Steve Munro...

- The oldest students who will still be at York as undergrads when the subway line opens are now in grade 6. Anyone now in grade 7 or up will still take the bus to York unless they plan postgrad work. Should we have to wait a decade for one line?
- Current service operated on the Sheppard Subway is about 13 trains/hour each with a capacity of 800 (crush load) or 650 (design load). That works out to 8,450 as the design capacity of current Sheppard Subway service. The Calgary LRT running on street is carrying more than that today (11,300, projected capacity of over 19,000).
- Total costs for Calgary LRT construction to date are $548-million for 42 kilometres of LRT. Even with inflation, that's still less than the cost of extending the subway 6 km to York.