407 Rail Freight Bypass/The Missing Link

[TOareaFan]

^Not meant as disrespect - but - KW has an organized and effective business community and municipal council that can work effectively as partners to make the needs of their city known and deliver a coherent, unified, sapient message.

Brampton, not so much.

- Paul

That is true (so I don't feel disrespected) but Phil Verster is head of a transportation company owned by, and paid for, the people of Ontario......there are a lot of those in Brampton and it is his not his job to overlook/ignore those people because some smaller burg has a well organized business community

Even in answering the question he disprespected the guy who asked it. He clearly stated that even though he now lives in Toronto he is asking the question as a former Peel resident familiar with the line (so either Brampton or Malton resident).....and then they go and blabber on about Kitchener.

 

[robmausser]

^ When you click on the big red play button it should automatically go to the time marker I set (if you click on the white text to should do the same as it's a link). 1hr 20min in.

Web Dev here, the embedding system on forum systems like this breaks the time string on youtube.

 

[robmausser]

That is true (so I don't feel disrespected) but Phil Verster is head of a transportation company owned by, and paid for, the people of Ontario......there are a lot of those in Brampton and it is his not his job to overlook/ignore those people because some smaller burg has a well organized business community

Even in answering the question he disprespected the guy who asked it. He clearly stated that even though he now lives in Toronto he is asking the question as a former Peel resident familiar with the line (so either Brampton or Malton resident).....and then they go and blabber on about Kitchener.

The problem is how the question was asked as well, but an inherent issue with the naming of the GO lines.

When asking about the Kitchener Line, even when talking about service improvements on the line between Union and Brampton, you are going to get a response about Kitchener because the people hear "Kitchener" in your question.

I don't think that GO should have named lines after the terminating city, it gives an undue advantage to those cities that this is "their line" and every stop in between is just piggybacking on what they think is owed to them.

Language is a very powerful tool and I think its important to not name something in an unfair way that will always benefit a particular location, especially in government.

Could you imagine if we called the yonge subway the Finch Line? The same issue is inherent with the Downtown Relief Line, a terrible name when the service it will improve will mostly be for people commuting out of the downtown.

IMO the GO lines need to be renamed something benign like the Blue Line, Red line, etc.

 

[TOareaFan]

The problem is how the question was asked as well, but an inherent issue with the naming of the GO lines.

When asking about the Kitchener Line, even when talking about service improvements on the line between Union and Brampton, you are going to get a response about Kitchener because the people hear "Kitchener" in your question.

I don't think that GO should have named lines after the terminating city, it gives an undue advantage to those cities that this is "their line" and every stop in between is just piggybacking on what they think is owed to them.

Language is a very powerful tool and I think its important to not name something in an unfair way that will always benefit a particular location, especially in government.

The guy was very clear, he was asking the question as a former Peel resident.......so that means he lived either in Malton or Brampton....the answer turned it around to serving the tech of KW and smaller airports connecting to pearson and all.....it was pretty clear to me the guy was asking about incremental service improvements (previously promised he noted) to the ~700k (combining Brampton and Malton) Peel residents served by this line.

 

[torontocolin]

When asking about the Kitchener Line, even when talking about service improvements on the line between Union and Brampton, you are going to get a response about Kitchener because the people hear "Kitchener" in your question
[....]
IMO the GO lines need to be renamed something benign like the Blue Line, Red line, etc.

Agreed, though I think the Lakeshore line name is excellent. Descriptive and inclusive. The other five could stand to be renamed.

The guy was very clear, he was asking the question as a former Peel resident.......so that means he lived either in Malton or Brampton....the answer turned it around to serving the tech of KW and smaller airports connecting to pearson and all.....it was pretty clear to me the guy was asking about incremental service improvements (previously promised he noted) to the ~700k (combining Brampton and Malton) Peel residents served by this line.

What I found frustrating is that they're not clear on what they're even trying to accomplish with regard to incremental improvements with CN. Are they dead set on access to Mount Pleasant for evening and weekend service? At one time, the plan was RER from Union to Bramalea, so are they pushing for access to Bramalea to start running TWAD service along that route? Either? Both? If all else fails, would/could they consider running service just between Union and Malton once they start dispatching their own trains? I understand that the nature of negotiating likely means they can't say anything specific about where they're at, but it would be nice to at least know what's on the table at this point.

 

[crs1026]

That is true (so I don't feel disrespected) but Phil Verster is head of a transportation company owned by, and paid for, the people of Ontario......there are a lot of those in Brampton and it is his not his job to overlook/ignore those people because some smaller burg has a well organized business community

Even in answering the question he disprespected the guy who asked it. He clearly stated that even though he now lives in Toronto he is asking the question as a former Peel resident familiar with the line (so either Brampton or Malton resident).....and then they go and blabber on about Kitchener.

I don’t disagree, I’m just more cynical about what it takes to move a bureaucracy. If a community isn’t a squeaky wheel, someone else gets the prom invitation.

What I found interesting was that he put a context of ‘Southwestern Ontario’ around the while thing. I wondered if he was taking pains to stay aligned to the Province’s whole HSR message. So even KW wasn’t being specifically pandered to.

In the end it was a fairly nonspecific message, but reassuring that they haven’t moved on to other things.

- Paul

 

[TOareaFan]

What I found frustrating is that they're not clear on what they're even trying to accomplish with regard to incremental improvements with CN. Are they dead set on access to Mount Pleasant for evening and weekend service? At one time, the plan was RER from Union to Bramalea, so are they pushing for access to Bramalea to start running TWAD service along that route? Either? Both? If all else fails, would/could they consider running service just between Union and Malton once they start dispatching their own trains? I understand that the nature of negotiating likely means they can't say anything specific about where they're at, but it would be nice to at least know what's on the table at this point.

As I have said repeatedly over last few years.....the whole mistake of buying two parts of the corridor but leaving CN in control of the middle bit will/is/has come come back to bite them in posterior. I think they can't identify what their goal is for intermediary service improvements is because they don't know and are not in a position to know....they are on their knees asking CN for "something, anything, please help us from ourselves!"

 

[smallspy]

As I have said repeatedly over last few years.....the whole mistake of buying two parts of the corridor but leaving CN in control of the middle bit will/is/has come come back to bite them in posterior. I think they can't identify what their goal is for intermediary service improvements is because they don't know and are not in a position to know....they are on their knees asking CN for "something, anything, please help us from ourselves!"

Until the bypass gets built, CN will not ever be in a position to sell the middle portion - Bramalea to Georgetown - of the line. It also happens to be a very important portion in the middle of one of their lines.

What would you rather, that they had not bought any of it? Because that's honestly what it sounds like you're suggesting.

They - Metrolinx - are not identifying what their short-term goals are because until CN gets back on its feet operations-wise they aren't likely to be in a position to approve any. And unfortunately, there's the potential that there won't be any improvements until the GO Operations Centre opens later this year.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[TOareaFan]

Until the bypass gets built, CN will not ever be in a position to sell the middle portion - Bramalea to Georgetown - of the line. It also happens to be a very important portion in the middle of one of their lines.

I know this....but they are suggesting they are asking for CN to allow more traffic there in the interim.

What would you rather, that they had not bought any of it? Because that's honestly what it sounds like you're suggesting.

It is what I have always been suggesting yes......back when the other purchases were made there was leverage available in the negotiations.......now there is none.

 

[TOareaFan]

would/could they consider running service just between Union and Malton once they start dispatching their own trains?

As many know, my knowledge of rail operations is considerably lower than most around here....so I have to ask, why would they have to wait until they started dispatching trains to run, say, evening and weekend service to Malton?

 

[mdrejhon]

They - Metrolinx - are not identifying what their short-term goals are because until CN gets back on its feet operations-wise they aren't likely to be in a position to approve any. And unfortunately, there's the potential that there won't be any improvements until the GO Operations Centre opens later this year.

I hope it operates smoothly enough by 2019 to implement 15-minute service in the soon-to-be-overloaded $3 fare sections.

 

[torontocolin]

They - Metrolinx - are not identifying what their short-term goals are because until CN gets back on its feet operations-wise they aren't likely to be in a position to approve any. And unfortunately, there's the potential that there won't be any improvements until the GO Operations Centre opens later this year.

Which is fine, as long as that stays on schedule it's not too far away. I'm much more concerned that even once they're dispatching their own trains, CN won't let them into Bramalea and that stops them from improving service. And at this point, I don't know why they wouldn't just say that they're going to roll out new service as soon as the operations centre opens. It's the perfect opportunity for the Liberals to promise all kinds of service increases by the end of the year.

As many know, my knowledge of rail operations is considerably lower than most around here....so I have to ask, why would they have to wait until they started dispatching trains to run, say, evening and weekend service to Malton?

CN currently handles their dispatching and is refusing the take on the work of more service because they're in a crisis of their own.

 

[TOareaFan]

Which is fine, as long as that stays on schedule it's not too far away. I'm much more concerned that even once they're dispatching their own trains, CN won't let them into Bramalea and that stops them from improving service.

Not really, even if evening and weekend service only got to Malton it is an improvement.

And at this point, I don't know why they wouldn't just say that they're going to roll out new service as soon as the operations centre opens. It's the perfect opportunity for the Liberals to promise all kinds of service increases by the end of the year.

Woah, stop right there......Metrolinx is not in the business of facilitating Liberal (or any party's) promises.

CN currently handles their dispatching and is refusing the take on the work of more service because they're in a crisis of their own.

Thanks for the explanation....and the contract negotiated and covering this dispatching service allows them to simply refuse to take on this additional work?

 

[torontocolin]

Woah, stop right there......Metrolinx is not in the business of facilitating Liberal (or any party's) promises.

I mean, as long as the Liberals are the governing party, Metrolinx is sort of by definition in the business of facilitating the promises they make. But I take your point that they're not (or at least shouldn't be) there to create opportunities for the governing party to take advantage for political purposes. But the Liberals are (presumably) intimately familiar with Metrolinx' operations, and if the opportunity existed for a cheap gain which could be accompanied by a series of press conference announcements, is there any doubt they'd be dragging out the podium?

Thanks for the explanation....and the contract negotiated and covering this dispatching service allows them to simply refuse to take on this additional work?

Evidently.

 

[crs1026]

As many know, my knowledge of rail operations is considerably lower than most around here....so I have to ask, why would they have to wait until they started dispatching trains to run, say, evening and weekend service to Malton?

CN's reluctance to add additional work to a dispatching office that it is in the process of closing. Running those trains requires not only lining their route, but keeping them clear of any freight trains working the line, and of any maintenance workers doing inspection and maintenance. CN's current volume problems means RTC's have plenty on their plate just running the freight lines.

Running to Bramalea is far superior operationally than running to Malton, especially on the current schedule where trains meet around Malton. Running to Bramalea means a turning back train can spend its lay over off the main line (assuming Platform 4 could be rescuscitated). If the layover were at Malton it would block that main line, likely for a full hour. It would actually take two tracks at Malton to run the current schedule, and passengers might be confused, because the 20:00 departure would be on track x and the 21:00 would be on track y.

To use Bramalea there is a tiny wee (my opinion)encroachment at Halwest as trains have to be routed over tracks also used by through freight. If a solution with CN truly is years away, there could be a track change made on the GO side to remove this. Expensive enough that it should only be done as a last resort.

I continue to wonder if the "problem" goes back to whatever was negotiated when GO invested in the Halton line 2007-2009. GO's declaration of its plans for number of trains clearly did not contemplate 2WAD or its current intentions. Who knows what was said or documented and how CN might rely on it. I also wonder what level of reserve capacity CN is determined to maintain. Three main lines or more might be expectations, even though they don't fully utilise two today. Better safe than sorry! We have to care about their interests in this regard - their freight is our economy, and a chokepoint hurts the Province also.

- Paul