407 Rail Freight Bypass/The Missing Link

[TOareaFan]

Running to Bramalea is far superior operationally than running to Malton, especially on the current schedule where trains meet around Malton. Running to Bramalea means a turning back train can spend its lay over off the main line (assuming Platform 4 could be rescuscitated). If the layover were at Malton it would block that main line, likely for a full hour. It would actually take two tracks at Malton to run the current schedule, and passengers might be confused, because the 20:00 departure would be on track x and the 21:00 would be on track y.

To use Bramalea there is a tiny wee (my opinion)encroachment at Halwest as trains have to be routed over tracks also used by through freight. If a solution with CN truly is years away, there could be a track change made on the GO side to remove this. Expensive enough that it should only be done as a last resort.



- Paul

Current service would operate as it does....what I thought we were talking about was getting additional service (evenings and weekends) added and if that could only be to Malton it would still be an improvement.....not perfect, not ideal, but an improvement.

 

[crs1026]

Current service would operate as it does....what I thought we were talking about was getting additional service (evenings and weekends) added and if that could only be to Malton it would still be an improvement.....not perfect, not ideal, but an improvement.

I agree.... it's doable, it's just somewhat more awkward than if a Bramalea solution could be arrived at.

- Paul

 

[TOareaFan]

I agree.... it's doable, it's just somewhat more awkward than if a Bramalea solution could be arrived at.

- Paul

how long do you wait before you just say "look, any one of you people that want trains evenings and weekends, drive or local transit to Malton is your answer"......seems better than "there are no trains"

 

[smallspy]

I know this....but they are suggesting they are asking for CN to allow more traffic there in the interim.

They are. And hopefully CN will abide. But for the time being, that does not appear to be likely.

And again, once GO takes over dispatching of their lines and CN closes their RTC office in Toronto, there may then be more freedom to allow it to happen.

It is what I have always been suggesting yes......back when the other purchases were made there was leverage available in the negotiations.......now there is none.

Again, CN was never going to put themselves in a position where the sale of that portion of track was ever going to happen, so to suggest that there was ever an opportunity, no matter how slight, is disingenuous at best.

And if you want to wait until you put yourself in a position to get it all in one fell swoop, at what point do you cut your losses? Should they not have purchased the segments of the Oakville Sub - in two different transactions, I might add - because they can't buy the section to Hamilton? Was it a waste to purchase the Bala Sub south of Doncaster when they will never be able to buy the section to the north?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[TOareaFan]

Again, CN was never going to put themselves in a position where the sale of that portion of track was ever going to happen, so to suggest that there was ever an opportunity, no matter how slight, is disingenuous at best.

No but if the money for the purchased portions was only available upon an access/use agreement for evening weekend trains there may have been some movement.

And if you want to wait until you put yourself in a position to get it all in one fell swoop, at what point do you cut your losses? Should they not have purchased the segments of the Oakville Sub - in two different transactions, I might add - because they can't buy the section to Hamilton? Was it a waste to purchase the Bala Sub south of Doncaster when they will never be able to buy the section to the north?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

I try (really try) not to comment on things I have absolutely zero knowledge of....so I will not comment of Bala north and south of Doncaster. But there is a difference in buying the Oakville sub without the section to Hamilton as opposed to purchases in the Kitchener corridor. Hamilton is an extension at the end....and the majority of the ridership in the corridor is served before you get to Hamilton. In the Kitchener corridor they purchased the ends and left the middle....rendering the other purchases essentially useless.....and they happen to be where the 3 busiest stations are (although I have noticed a real dramatic increase in Malton use lately so maybe it is just 3 of the top 4 now).....so the situations are not analogous at all.

 

[crs1026]

I try (really try) not to comment on things I have absolutely zero knowledge of....so I will not comment of Bala north and south of Doncaster. But there is a difference in buying the Oakville sub without the section to Hamilton as opposed to purchases in the Kitchener corridor. Hamilton is an extension at the end....and the majority of the ridership in the corridor is served before you get to Hamilton. In the Kitchener corridor they purchased the ends and left the middle....rendering the other purchases essentially useless.....and they happen to be where the 3 busiest stations are (although I have noticed a real dramatic increase in Malton use lately so maybe it is just 3 of the top 4 now).....so the situations are not analogous at all.

They bought what was on the table for sale. The middle piece of the Halton Sub never was, and never will be (absent a bypass).

Definitely someone at ML or pre-ML GO should have said to CN "and what if we need to increase service in the middle?". However, GO's official position back in 2009 (per the original EA for Kitchener service) was that bidirectional service between Toronto and Kitchener was not expected to arrive until 2031 and even then service would be 20 min headways at peak and hourly off-peak. CN cooperated with that initial EA, but the accelerated timetable of RER may have caught it by surprise.

- Paul

 

[TOareaFan]

They bought what was on the table for sale. The middle piece of the Halton Sub never was, and never will be (absent a bypass).

I know, and have acknowledged that. What was negotiable was the amount of access to the middle bit to make the purchase of the end bits (man this is a really technical discussion....hope it is not confusing people ) of more value.

Definitely someone at ML or pre-ML GO should have said to CN "and what if we need to increase service in the middle?". However, GO's official position back in 2009 (per the original EA for Kitchener service) was that bidirectional service between Toronto and Kitchener was not expected to arrive until 2031 and even then service would be 20 min headways at peak and hourly off-peak. CN cooperated with that initial EA, but the accelerated timetable of RER may have caught it by surprise.

- Paul

In 2009 was GO's official position that bi-directional service between Brampton and Toronto was not expected to arrive until 2031?

 

[Allandale25]

They bought what was on the table for sale. The middle piece of the Halton Sub never was, and never will be (absent a bypass).

Definitely someone at ML or pre-ML GO should have said to CN "and what if we need to increase service in the middle?". However, GO's official position back in 2009 (per the original EA for Kitchener service) was that bidirectional service between Toronto and Kitchener was not expected to arrive until 2031 and even then service would be 20 min headways at peak and hourly off-peak. CN cooperated with that initial EA, but the accelerated timetable of RER may have caught it by surprise.

- Paul

Given the RER piece platform was in OLP's 2014 campaign and it took until 2016 to get a MOU with CN for the Bypass, I wonder if they or any of the other parties even thought of wrapping the cost of the Bypass into their 2014 numbers. They all love to talk about all-day, two-way GO but everyone was short on specifics, until recently. And as we're seeing, a Legal Agreement to start actual work on the Bypass plus the EA can't be done in a matter of weeks.

 

[torontocolin]

In the Kitchener corridor they purchased the ends and left the middle....rendering the other purchases essentially useless.....and they happen to be where the 3 busiest stations are (although I have noticed a real dramatic increase in Malton use lately so maybe it is just 3 of the top 4 now).....so the situations are not analogous at all.

One of those ends is the UPX corridor, so maybe a little disingenuous to call it useless. And as much as I think Brampton desperately needs more service, that corridor could have a lot of value to Toronto riders even without service past Malton.

 

[Dan416]

CN's service (at my workplace, not related to GO) has really deteriorated with the threat of a CP strike. I'm hearing constant complaint from coworkers and vendors about them.

I don't know how CN's service got so bad...

 

[crs1026]

In 2009 was GO's official position that bi-directional service between Brampton and Toronto was not expected to arrive until 2031?

I took that from the 2009 Kitchener-Georgetown EA, which reads as follows.

Thinking a little more, this may not really indicate what GO intended east of Mount Pleasant. And of course, the press release announcing the EA did promise 2WAD to Georgetown, no timetable mentioned.

Looking over the documents that GO issued while GTS was going on, they spoke to 29 GO trains on opening day (ie 2015) without giving any further indication of timing from there. Other documents implied that the fourth track (now to be built) was not expected until 2031.

The other relevant document is the Big Move of 2008, which called for Express Rail Brampton to Toronto and Regional Rail Georgetown to Brampton as 15 year priorities (ie 2023), but the map in that document clarifies that this is at peak only. I believe even that commitment was cut back to Mount Pleasant by an update version of the Big Move.

The announcement of the east end (Weston Sub) purchase also implied this, without a timetable... it also spoke to an "agreement" with CN.

I guess we really need to know what that agreement says. I bet it will never see the light of day.

- Paul

PS - Here's an interesting City of Brampton report which appears to acknowledge that GO improvements would be limited to midday service, with 2WAD 25 years out..

 

[Allandale25]

This response from the NDP from questions Brampton Council asked of all parties mentions the Bypass:

An NDP government will make progress towards a freight bypass to allow a dedicated Kitchener-Toronto rail corridor, allowing for frequent all-day, two-way GO rail service to Kitchener, Guelph, and Brampton.

 

[TOareaFan]

This response from the NDP from questions Brampton Council asked of all parties mentions the Bypass:

Sure....what else are/were they going to say? They offer no real substance to the "we will make progress" reply.

 

[Allandale25]

^ Just thought it was noteworthy in terms of their knowledge of the issue and that they made a specific reference to the Bypass . Given the Liberals are currently in government and the idea became public on their watch, I'm surprised they didn't make a specific reference to it in their reply. No reply yet from the PCs or Greens. It's just an observation.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Given that All Day 2 Way service to Kitchener is a key part of their transit platform (gets its own line item).. and the Bypass is needed for this.. I imagine it'll happen.