36 Reasons Streetcars Are Better Than Buses

[Eug]

I'm not going to lie. I much prefer streetcars to buses, and if I'm in a city other than Toronto, I'll almost always take a streetcar over a bus. That's why I would support converting some bus routes to streetcars, even if they don't have their own right of way. I'm thinking Coxwell and Dufferin. My problem is that over the past decade or two, the TTC has forgotten how to properly operate streetcar routes. That's obvious anecdotally, and Steve Munro has demonstrated it statistically.

I dunno, but... Not sure about Coxwell, but streetcar on much of Dufferin would probably be a disaster.

 

[APTA-2048]

Just an observation from taking the Queen car this week. The idea, or myth if I may be so bold, of streetcars/LRT being for "upper class" clientele: BUSTED
Now I'm not saying streetcars are for the "lower class". My point is I don't observe people being stigmatized by bus travel, at least in Toronto. I observe all types of people taking the bus and streetcar. It's not all a bunch of creeps and wierdos (reference to a car advert from some time ago).

BTW, has anyone heard people call the streetcar a bus? For example, "Oh yeah I'm just getting on the bus now on Queen." and of course they are getting on a streetcar. Looks to some as just a way to get from place to place.

 

[Chuck]

Just an observation from taking the Queen car this week. The idea, or myth if I may be so bold, of streetcars/LRT being for "upper class" clientele: BUSTED

The reason for this is that streetcars have such an extensive history in this city and serve so broad an area, that they are not viewed as a special or unique mode of transit. Unlike in other North American cities, streetcar lines in Toronto are less effective at spurring gentrification in the inner city because they already exist everywhere and the entire income spectrum relies on them. This is a huge achievement that demonstrates that our transit system is functional and mature.

It's the same thing in New York with subways. Subways have existed there for over 100 years and cover every square inch of the city. Therefore there's nothing special or unique about living near a subway station, and in fact subways run through some of the lowest income and least desirable neighbourhoods in that city.

 

[Epi]

Agreed. However, that does not discount the usefulness of BRT, particularly in locales where ridership is insufficient for LRT. In fact, if you have insufficient ridership then LRT would actually bring down service because you would end up with significantly longer wait times.

It makes sense that Ottawa is now converting the central portions of its BRT network to LRT because of bus congestion. However, given the ridership at the outer ends of the network it would be ridiculous to suggest extending rails end-to-end. Likewise, in Toronto, while LRT makes sense on Finch West, it's a serious waste of cash to deploy LRT on Finch East when BRT would suffice. A BRT would also have helped out on routes other than the Finch East buses themselves as well. Instead, the LRT on Finch East could effectively kill off what was a rather successful bus route.

In an ideal situation, BRT would be part of the upgrade path: local bus -> BRT -> LRT -> Subway. It would not be a choice of one or the other.

That is true. It seems running LRT on Finch east may be somewhat politically motivated. Oh Metrolinx!

 

[jwill]

Many of those points aren't valid, but there are some reasonable ones.

Buses are less comfortable to ride, louder inside and outside, and increase the pollution in streets.

Even a BRT cannot compete with an LRT on these points, unless its an electric bus running not just in a ROW but on a guideway.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Is sitting on a GO bus less comfortable than standing on a streetcar? Even the "valid" points aren't always valid.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Read this story about Severe swaying throws some bus passengers from seats by clicking on this link:

Severe swaying throws some bus passengers from seats

By Phillip Lucas

Seattle Times staff reporter

A Metro Transit bus traveling north on Interstate 5 on Thursday morning swayed so severely that some passengers were thrown from their seats.

The Route 941 bus was heading from the Star Lake Park-and-Ride toward Tukwila in the HOV lane when it began swaying at around 7 a.m., passenger Sue Callahan said.

"At first we didn't think about it," Callahan said. But when the problem didn't correct itself, she said passengers began panicking.

"I've never heard so many people yelling prayers in my life."

Callahan said the swaying was so severe that passengers feared the bus would tip and land on its side. The swaying went on, she said, for 15 to 30 seconds.

The bus driver told passengers the bus had done the same thing when he was driving it earlier in the day, Callahan said.

Callahan said the driver told passengers he reported the incident to Metro officials, who told him to slow down.

"We were just thrilled," she said. The bus had been going the speed limit before it began to sway, she said.

A Metro spokeswoman said the bus would be inspected. She guessed the coach could need new shock absorbers.

Standard procedure when a Metro operator believes a vehicle could be malfunctioning is to pull over when it is safe, do a visual inspection of the bus and then report the incident, according to Rochelle Ogershok, Metro spokeswoman.

Ogershok said motion problems with articulated buses are much more noticeable if a bus is driven with a full load of passengers.

Callahan said the bus was almost full.

Ogershok said these problems usually are not linked to any vehicle or operator malfunction and usually are corrected through vehicle maintenance.

 

[jwill]

Is sitting on a GO bus less comfortable than standing on a streetcar? Even the "valid" points aren't always valid.

Sure, an empty bus can be better than a packed streetcar. Its a bit of a false argument though, since a streetcar has higher capacity than a bus. If you replaced that packed streetcar with a bus route you wouldn't be sitting down.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Sure, an empty bus can be better than a packed streetcar. Its a bit of a false argument though, since a streetcar has higher capacity than a bus. If you replaced that packed streetcar with a bus route you wouldn't be sitting down.

You said buses are less comfortable. You're not wrong, but it's not true, either.

 

[MisterF]

Is sitting on a GO bus less comfortable than standing on a streetcar? Even the "valid" points aren't always valid.

That's hardly a valid comparison. GO buses don't serve the same market as a streetcar. A more valid comparison would be a TTC streetcar with a TTC bus, or a GO train with a GO bus, or a VIA train with a Greyhound bus. The only one of those three where the bus could compare is with GO, and only because the seats themselves are more padded.

 

[Hipster Duck]

That's hardly a valid comparison. GO buses don't serve the same market as a streetcar. A more valid comparison would be a TTC streetcar with a TTC bus, or a GO train with a GO bus, or a VIA train with a Greyhound bus. The only one of those three where the bus could compare is with GO, and only because the seats themselves are more padded.

This is all relative. Personally, I enjoy riding TTC buses more than streetcars because they're brighter, air-conditioned and don't smell bad. They're also generally more reliable on key routes. A pregnant friend of mine who's moving to Vancouver mentioned that she's looking forward to being on a bus route because of the wider aisles and easier stroller access than on a streetcar. As someone who's rode around on Bombardier Flexities in Germany, I can tell you that our new crop of streetcars will feel longer but not necessarily wider, so the low floor attributes will be a step up, but only a small step up, for disabled riders or parents with strollers.

Anyway, I don't know why we're arguing about bus versus streetcar comfort. There are people who prefer one over another, and then there are the majority of people who don't give a rat's ass either way. Even if they did prefer rail, is it worth the added cost of building and maintaining a network of tracks, separate vehicles and electrification? They can write kneejerk articles all they want - at the end of the day, they aren't paying for it. In Toronto it might be a wash because of the fact that our legacy network is already in place, but the fanboy who wrote this article lives in Chicago and directs his vitriol toward American audiences. When a 6km one-way loop streetcar line in Portland costs $58 million (and serves 9,000 riders per day in mixed traffic) you know that sanity has left the planning department. Seriously, what benefits do streetcars impart over buses for their relative cost in a city where a streetcar network has to be built from scratch? If there are benefits, are they $10M/km benefits?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

That's hardly a valid comparison. GO buses don't serve the same market as a streetcar. A more valid comparison would be a TTC streetcar with a TTC bus, or a GO train with a GO bus, or a VIA train with a Greyhound bus. The only one of those three where the bus could compare is with GO, and only because the seats themselves are more padded.

By disagreeing with me you've managed to support my point that saying buses are less comfortable isn't unequivocally true.

Few people - if there's any at all - prefer streetcars over buses...what people prefer is sitting more than standing, and padded seats over plastic seats, and faster vehicles over slower ones, and so on, and while you can make an argument that one may be more likely to get these things on a streetcar than a bus, there's certainly no guarantee.

 

[nfitz]

Few people - if there's any at all - prefer streetcars over buses...

What a bizarre statement! I can't say I've encountered anyone who prefers buses over streetcars! The streetcars are more spacious, more comfortable when sitting, and a lot easier to stand in, as you don't get the sudden turns and bends.

I'm sure there some that prefer buses ... but I think your massively overstating your case.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

What a bizarre statement! I can't say I've encountered anyone who prefers buses over streetcars! The streetcars are more spacious, more comfortable when sitting, and a lot easier to stand in, as you don't get the sudden turns and bends.

I'm sure there some that prefer buses ... but I think your massively overstating your case ... as usual.

Again, you're proving my point. More spacious (when not overcrowded), more comfortable (when sitting), etc. The TTC runs its streetcars so poorly that you barely have an inch of "easy" ground to stand on, and you will be pushed out of the way when someone needs to get off. Of course, they don't need to always be operated this way.

 

[MisterF]

Anyway, I don't know why we're arguing about bus versus streetcar comfort. There are people who prefer one over another, and then there are the majority of people who don't give a rat's ass either way. Even if they did prefer rail, is it worth the added cost of building and maintaining a network of tracks, separate vehicles and electrification? They can write kneejerk articles all they want - at the end of the day, they aren't paying for it. In Toronto it might be a wash because of the fact that our legacy network is already in place, but the fanboy who wrote this article lives in Chicago and directs his vitriol toward American audiences. When a 6km one-way loop streetcar line in Portland costs $58 million (and serves 9,000 riders per day in mixed traffic) you know that sanity has left the planning department. Seriously, what benefits do streetcars impart over buses for their relative cost in a city where a streetcar network has to be built from scratch? If there are benefits, are they $10M/km benefits?

Hipster, I don't think anyone here is arguing that we should spend all those millions solely to attract riders. So how about we put that strawman to rest? All I've been saying is that rail tends to attract more riders than buses. Of course the main reason to build light rail is to accomodate high demand.