36 Reasons Streetcars Are Better Than Buses

[kettal]

If the goal is to attract riders, take the billions of dollars for TC and increase TTC subsidies to the point of reducing or eliminating the fares. I am sure that would be more effective.

It would lead to overcrowding, which helps nobody. More capacity would have to be built first.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Ok, let me clarify.

It is one that stops at red lights. And it has a red light every 10 metres for no reason, and the light is always red when the lrt gets to it and it stays red for 5 minutes. And it is never green when the vehicle gets to it. Plus pedestrians like to sit on the tracks for no reason, blocking the lrt. And there is a multiple vehicle collision at every intersection, every day, which also blocks the lrt.

There's the basics.

No one's going to get out of their car to sit on a second kind of vehicle at red lights (one that's slower than the car) but not a third kind of vehicle (also slower than the car). That's basic stuff. I honestly don't know where people come up with the idea that a demographic of bus haters exists in Toronto, where pretty much every bus route is always full of people. Sure, there 15 railfans on the internet that won't take buses, but this does not translate into reality.

Build light rail as real rapid transit, though, and you will get some converts. Yes, this means not stopping for cars and it means actually going faster than the buses it's replacing.

 

[Epi]

Doesn't matter if people like or hate rail versus buses. The important thing is that capacity in an LRT is 4x that of a bus. That alone justifies the building of LRT, especially if we want ridership growth in these areas. There's only so many buses you can jam in before it overclogs the streets and service gets worse and worse. Not to mention that the TTC has had a very, very had time hiring new drivers as well. At some point higher-order transit is necessary.

The fact that people prefer rail over the bus and that rail is a ton more comfortable to ride in especially if it's modern low-floor LRT is a bonus.

 

[W. K. Lis]

On Saturday afternoon, at King and Yonge, there were a group of at least 6 people, taking photographs of the streetcar I was on, as it rolled by. You don't have tourists taking photographs of buses, unless it is one of the double-decker sightseeing buses.
And when a new bus model drives by, there is not a lot flurry of people photographing it with their cell phones. There will be when the new streetcar models appear. Especially when you consider that the streetcars will be around a lot longer than any of the new buses.

 

[unimaginative2]

Tourism is a serious concern. The CLRVs, whatever their faults, are fairly unique and are obviously directly descended from streetcars. Outside of San Francisco and Kenosha, there aren't many places to see them. Once we have the same kind of LRVs that you can find in Minneapolis, Dallas, Portland, Boston, Buffalo, St. Louis, Los Angeles, Seattle, and across Europe, I doubt very many people will stop to take pictures or ride them as a tourist attraction. There's definitely something to be said for a heritage streetcar line like San Francisco operates along Market Street.

 

[MisterF]

Tourism is a serious concern. The CLRVs, whatever their faults, are fairly unique and are obviously directly descended from streetcars. Outside of San Francisco and Kenosha, there aren't many places to see them. Once we have the same kind of LRVs that you can find in Minneapolis, Dallas, Portland, Boston, Buffalo, St. Louis, Los Angeles, Seattle, and across Europe, I doubt very many people will stop to take pictures or ride them as a tourist attraction. There's definitely something to be said for a heritage streetcar line like San Francisco operates along Market Street.

That's probably at least partly true, but I'd say it's worth it. Better capacity, better accessibility, faster loading and unloading, etc. They're going to make the current streetcars look like the clunkers that they are.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Doesn't matter if people like or hate rail versus buses. The important thing is that capacity in an LRT is 4x that of a bus. That alone justifies the building of LRT, especially if we want ridership growth in these areas. There's only so many buses you can jam in before it overclogs the streets and service gets worse and worse. Not to mention that the TTC has had a very, very had time hiring new drivers as well. At some point higher-order transit is necessary.

There's more we can do with buses on most routes...skipping these steps to follow some mythical higher order progression (even though skipping these steps betrays the same progression) and going straight to billion-dollar LRT lines is ridiculous in some places (though buses don't really work in other places, like Eglinton west of Yonge).

If we're talking about the TTC, we need to remember that replacing buses for the sake of capacity is pointless if the TTC will use the opportunity to run larger vehicles less often...that will do nothing for ridership growth. There is a belief in this city that anything less than overcrowding and leaving people behind on the curb/platform is unacceptable, and transit won't be improved unless that changes. Vehicles can be at barely half, maybe 2/3 of their theoretical capacity (which can't even be reached) but be 'full' enough to drive people to drive.

 

[Epi]

There's more we can do with buses on most routes...skipping these steps to follow some mythical higher order progression (even though skipping these steps betrays the same progression) and going straight to billion-dollar LRT lines is ridiculous in some places (though buses don't really work in other places, like Eglinton west of Yonge).

If we're talking about the TTC, we need to remember that replacing buses for the sake of capacity is pointless if the TTC will use the opportunity to run larger vehicles less often...that will do nothing for ridership growth. There is a belief in this city that anything less than overcrowding and leaving people behind on the curb/platform is unacceptable, and transit won't be improved unless that changes. Vehicles can be at barely half, maybe 2/3 of their theoretical capacity (which can't even be reached) but be 'full' enough to drive people to drive.

Currently buses on a lot of routes ARE that full... that's the point. People ARE being left at the curb. You're just assuming that the TTC will run LRTs 1/4 as often since they have 4x the capacity. There's no fair basis for that assumption beyond speculation.

I think it's strange that on one hand you think the TTC is very capable to continuously scale up bus service beyond what they are able to do now (considering they are short of buses and drivers and road space) but on the other hand are not able to run LRTs more often to meet demand.

As for skipping steps, it seems like the TTC is already doing their best regardless with the Finch express route for instance. But I guess that's deemed not enough. The TTC's own projections show that they cannot meet projected demand with buses. While there's always room for them to be grossly incompetent at estimating demand (or amazingly corrupt and in the hands of LRT manufacturers) I'll default to the professionals unless you can show with hard numbers that all of these routes can be well serviced without LRT and how the TTC can expand bus service in current constraints (and future demand) and still meet demand.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Currently buses on a lot of routes ARE that full... that's the point. People ARE being left at the curb. You're just assuming that the TTC will run LRTs 1/4 as often since they have 4x the capacity. There's no fair basis for that assumption beyond speculation.

I think it's strange that on one hand you think the TTC is very capable to continuously scale up bus service beyond what they are able to do now (considering they are short of buses and drivers and road space) but on the other hand are not able to run LRTs more often to meet demand.

There's things we can do that don't involve buying more buses.

And what we're seeing is this city *not* improving service in every way they can, hence the caveat about LRT. We're not doing much to improve bus service (and we're not doing it for existing streetcar lines, either), hence the need to point out the gap between what could be done and what the city claims it'll do.

The real solution to Toronto's transit problems is not replacing buses with LRT, it's more subways and GO trains (regardless of what happens with local transit lines like buses and LRT that stops at red lights). There's places where LRT works (if built and operated properly) and places where it makes no sense or is a waste of money. Does Morningside need 4 times more service? No.

edit - and I clearly didn't say every buses are fine for every route. Read.

 

[Epi]

Subways are nice and all, but history have proved that strategy doesn't work for Toronto proper (unless tied to the 905). Considering all the failed subway plans that Toronto's had for the last 20 years, it was wise for the TTC to use a different strategy. They were supposed to have ran a subway by my house about 15 years ago, I clearly remember the newsletter in the mail. Well it never happened...

P.S. I clearly did not say that you said that they should have buses in every route, especially considering I know how much you love building subways. Read.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Subways are nice and all, but history have proved that strategy doesn't work for Toronto proper (unless tied to the 905). Considering all the failed subway plans that Toronto's had for the last 20 years, it was wise for the TTC to use a different strategy. They were supposed to have ran a subway by my house about 15 years ago, I clearly remember the newsletter in the mail. Well it never happened...

P.S. I clearly did not say that you said that they should have buses in every route, especially considering I know how much you love building subways. Read.

Congratulations on your ability to misquote people, it's quite something.

 

[kettal]

And what we're seeing is this city *not* improving service in every way they can, hence the caveat about LRT. We're not doing much to improve bus service (and we're not doing it for existing streetcar lines, either), hence the need to point out the gap between what could be done and what the city claims it'll do.

Of course every route is different and requires a different solution.

May I ask what you think are the best improvements the city can make for, say, Finch Avenue West?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

So what do you think is the best future for Finch Ave West? Subway or GO train?

LRT should work fine as a streetcar ROW, but the Spadina extension and better GO service - not to mention relieving the overcrowded lines downtown - should actually do more for riders that use Finch West than whatever happens to local transit on Finch West.

 

[unimaginative2]

Subways are nice and all, but history have proved that strategy doesn't work for Toronto proper (unless tied to the 905). Considering all the failed subway plans that Toronto's had for the last 20 years, it was wise for the TTC to use a different strategy. They were supposed to have ran a subway by my house about 15 years ago, I clearly remember the newsletter in the mail. Well it never happened...

That's because Mike Harris was elected and there was no money. It had nothing to do with the plans, and least of all the technology. Believe it or not, if the TTC had proposed $10 billion worth of LRT in the 90s, that plan would have failed too. If the City proposed $10 billion worth of subways today, the plan would succeed because the money is there.

As both scarberian and I have said about a hundred times, Finch West is pretty well-suited to LRT. The question is whether the hydro corridor might be a better route than the middle of the street.

 

[W. K. Lis]

To those who think that only streetcars have scheduling problems, check out this story from Second Ave. Sagas:

Waiting for a bus that isn’t coming
By Benjamin Kabak

My gym inhabits an old bank at the corner of 5th Ave. and Union St. in Park Slope. The building has a pair of mezzanines on either end, and the treadmills are lined up facing out the windows on the second floor overlooking the avenue. With a clear view of the B63 bus shelter on the Bay Ridge side of the street, while running, I watch people wait for the bus.

A few Fridays ago, an interesting story unfolded, and while most people wouldn’t think much of it, I thought the tale is a clear indication why New York City’s transit technology is out of date and in need of an upgrade. This sordid story starts at six in the evening. I walked to the gym and noted a larger-than-usual crowd of people at the bus stop. After stretching, I hopped onto the treadmill and noted that the throngs of people were still there.

As the minutes and miles ticked by, I was struck by the scene at the bus stop. Thirteen minutes into my run, no bus had shown up. I could see frustration on the faces of those waiting for the B63. Some stood with their grocery bags staring futilely up the avenue. Others were attempting to keep their children from dashing into the street.

Nine minutes later, as I cleared the 2.5-mile mark, people started to leave. An older woman with what I guessed to be a grandson hailed a cab to points south. The younger child was growing far too impatient to wait for the bus. Four minutes later, a mother and her son headed west on Union St., bound for the R stop on Fourth Ave.

By the thirty-minute mark, as I passed 3.5 miles, nearly everyone else had left. After a series of frantic phone calls accompanied with the exasperated arm motions of someone stymied on the way home, a twenty-something woman with red hair found a cab. Others started walking along Fifth Ave. They would try to get closer to home while waiting for the bus to catch up.

By the time I hit five miles at around 41 minutes, nearly all of the original commuters had found other means of transit. New bus riders had shown up to wait. Still, though, one woman sat there. She had been sitting there when I had arrived at the gym, and she was still there afterward. I had run the equivalent of the distance from the gym to 95th St. in Bay Ridge, and still one woman waited for the bus.

On my way home, I detoured by the bus station and asked her how long she had planned to wait. “A few more minutes,†she said with a laugh. For someone waiting over 50 minutes for the bus, she had a sense of humor about her. “I thought maybe 200 people are dead somewhere,†she said. She had a book, though, and didn’t mind waiting.

As I walked back home, I glanced up Fifth Ave. and saw not one but two southbound buses heading my way. The wait would be over, and no one would ever know why the B63 didn’t show up for nearly an hour at rush hour on a Friday. With no digitized arrival board and centralized system for announcements, bus riders in the city are left with that tried, true and not too useful technique of waiting and peering. One day, we’ll catch up.