36 Reasons Streetcars Are Better Than Buses

[Eug]

Actually, my post was to dispel this myth that people inherently prefer streetcars. In another thread, MisterF said "all things being equal, people prefer rail". The researchers dispel this.

Of course it makes perfect sense that people would prefer rail if it offered a higher quality of service. If the bus offers higher quality of service over rail (and it happens) it would go the other way around.

So why didn't you quote the entire sentence then?

Good bus service is good bus service, but many people would rather take rail with a dedicated right of way than standard TTC bus. You can substitute BRT for that "rail with a dedicated right of way" but unfortunately we don't seem to have much of that in Toronto.

 

[MattB]

It seems to me that the streeetcar supporters don't have to rely on the Queen 501, the best reason to dislike streetcars.

 

[Eug]

It seems to me that the streeetcar supporters don't have to rely on the Queen 501, the best reason to dislike streetcars.

Heh. When I'm a driver on Queen, I hate streetcars there. In truth, I could see bus doing better on Queen. They would both be very slow, but at least a bus wouldn't hold up as much traffic.

 

[Hipster Duck]

So why didn't you quote the entire sentence then?

Because it was bloody obvious. "Most people prefer eating dessert rather than getting punched in the crotch unless the dessert contains poison", or something like that.

 

[GTS]

I appreciate all forms of public transit and that includes buses. It is incredible seeing a good station that moves a lot of people during rush hour. Lots of full buses converge at the Scarborough Town Center Station in the mornings. Most of the riders head up to the RT but some of us grab another bus. Their are regional (GO) buses that use this transit hub as well. I see other stations along my route that I am appreciate as well such as Main St. station that has buses, subway and a streetcar. I don't get down there too much but I am sure that Union Station with its Regional trains, subway trains and streetcars is a bustling station as well. Subways are my favorite but we all can't have a subway to our frontdoor so we hope we have good feeder system of buses and streetcars. From my place of residence their are three different buses I could take that could take me to four different station depending on which direction I plan on taking. Unfortunately their is no streetcar line planned for my area.

 

[kEiThZ]

LRT has higher capacity than BRT. You can only run buses so close to eachother for practicality and safety's sake. Meanwhile one long LRT can be equivalent to many buses, or if you wish, many buses running end to end.

Agreed. However, that does not discount the usefulness of BRT, particularly in locales where ridership is insufficient for LRT. In fact, if you have insufficient ridership then LRT would actually bring down service because you would end up with significantly longer wait times.

It makes sense that Ottawa is now converting the central portions of its BRT network to LRT because of bus congestion. However, given the ridership at the outer ends of the network it would be ridiculous to suggest extending rails end-to-end. Likewise, in Toronto, while LRT makes sense on Finch West, it's a serious waste of cash to deploy LRT on Finch East when BRT would suffice. A BRT would also have helped out on routes other than the Finch East buses themselves as well. Instead, the LRT on Finch East could effectively kill off what was a rather successful bus route.

In an ideal situation, BRT would be part of the upgrade path: local bus -> BRT -> LRT -> Subway. It would not be a choice of one or the other.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The list is like the Chuck Norris facts of streetcars (37. streetcars do your taxes, 38. streetcars offer better protection against dinosaur attacks, 39. even buses take streetcars when they're not in service, etc.).

Many suburban bus routes are wonderfully fast...frequency is insane, then you just step off the bus and onto another, making transfers sometimes only seconds in duration. Being let off onto the sidewalk is nice.

I've had worse problems with the College streetcar than Queen - but I'll freely acknowledge that I don't ride Queen very often...well, I *can't* ride it often if it doesn't show up. At least on College I see 5+ vehicles go in the other direction while I'm waiting.

 

[Towered]

Heh. When I'm a driver on Queen, I hate streetcars there. In truth, I could see bus doing better on Queen. They would both be very slow, but at least a bus wouldn't hold up as much traffic.

Transit should always be priority. It's the streetcars that are held up by car traffic.

 

[doady]

I think the streetcars can be given their own right-of-way if Queen, Dundas, etc, are converted to one-way streets for car traffic and the tracks moved to one side allowing streetcars to still operate in both directions. Just my idea though, not sure if it would work.

 

[unimaginative2]

I'm not going to lie. I much prefer streetcars to buses, and if I'm in a city other than Toronto, I'll almost always take a streetcar over a bus. That's why I would support converting some bus routes to streetcars, even if they don't have their own right of way. I'm thinking Coxwell and Dufferin. My problem is that over the past decade or two, the TTC has forgotten how to properly operate streetcar routes. That's obvious anecdotally, and Steve Munro has demonstrated it statistically.

 

[MisterF]

Actually, my post was to dispel this myth that people inherently prefer streetcars. In another thread, MisterF said "all things being equal, people prefer rail". The researchers dispel this.

What do people who actually study transit and use tools like statistical analysis have to say about bus vs. rail choice?

"The main conclusion of the study is that there is no evident preference for rail travel over bus when quantifiable service characteristics such as travel time and cost are equal,"

Ben-Akiva, M. & Takayuki, M. (2002). Comparing ridership attraction of rail and bus. Transport Policy, 9(2), 109-116

They say things like this:

"Analyses of the effects of both this growth and the improvements in rail systems that were added during the same period reveal that transit mode does indeed make a significant difference in the level of use of a transit facility."

"When these service conditions are equal, it is evident that rail transit is likely to attract from 34 percent to 43 percent more riders than will equivalent bus service."

http://pubsindex.trb.org/document/view/default.asp?lbid=308484
http://www.publictransit.us/ptlibrary/TRB1221.pdf

 

[Glen]

Why is all this talk about preference omitting cost, both operating and capital? Without it we might as well be comparing limousine service to a unicycle with spikes on its seat.

 

[golodhendil]

Why is all this talk about preference omitting cost, both operating and capital? Without it we might as well be comparing limousine service to a unicycle with spikes on its seat.

See post #39 above, for one such analysis.

 

[doady]

Why is all this talk about preference omitting cost, both operating and capital? Without it we might as well be comparing limousine service to a unicycle with spikes on its seat.

Exactly, light rail may be more attractive (and I also personally prefer riding streetcars), but at the same time light rail also costs more, so BRT would serve a larger area, so in the end BRT or LRT can have the same impact on ridership.

Do you really think that if the TTC spent $10 billion on improving the bus network that it would not have the same impact as the current $10 billion LRT plan?

Since BRT is cheaper, imagine if they "only" spent $2 billion on BRT and then used the remaining $8 billion on subway expansion, including Sheppard and Danforth to SCC, Eglinton West, and DRL. Wouldn't that have a huge impact as well?

So what is the point of continually bashing buses?

 

[W. K. Lis]

The King streetcar carried more people in the 1950's than it does now. It also was quicker, completing the route from the Vincent loop (Dundas West Station) to the Erindale loop (Broadview Station) in less time. The difference was than there were a less number of automobiles to contend with, even with the driver selling tickets.

Unfortunately, in the 1950's the King streetcar was also more frequent, with better headways than today.