2023 Toronto Mayoral by-election

[Northern Light]

Your points demonstrate how normalized and pervasive the erasure of anything non-English is in anglophone North America. Hence it is an obstacle for someone like Bailão to appeal to (centre-)right voters who previously have only ever voted for white men with Anglo-Saxon names

I have to say, I think you're really stretching it here.

This city is majority foreign born and majority minority.

Lots of people who might have voted Harper voted Wynne once, a large section of the NDP vote is middle-aged white folk, who elected a Federal leader named Jagmeet.

Meanwhile a lot of Ford's support in Etobicoke originates in minority communities.

I don't want to brush over real prejudice both conscious and subconscious, no doubt it exists in a statistically significant way, but I think you're painting with too broad a brush.

Where do you think Saunders support base is?

I don't think most people in this City, irrespective of background have a prejudice against female candidates, or against non-anglo sounding names.

Do some? Sure........ and that's not ok, of course. But I don't think we ought to exaggerate that factor.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Your points demonstrate how normalized and pervasive the erasure of anything non-English is in anglophone North America.

Sure, that’s why it’s called anglophone North America. If you want to use foreign characters for monikers that’s your business, but don’t except the society to universally accept, understand or value them.

 

[afransen]

Your points demonstrate how normalized and pervasive the erasure of anything non-English is in anglophone North America. Hence it is an obstacle for someone like Bailão to appeal to (centre-)right voters who previously have only ever voted for white men with Anglo-Saxon names

I think you're reading too much into it. Other cultures butcher english in their own context. That's fine. You can try to be a pedant who corrects people for pronouncing croissant the english way vs the french way, but language is defined by its users.

 

[DSC]

Sure, that’s why it’s called anglophone North America. If you want to use foreign characters for monikers that’s your business, but don’t except the society to universally accept, understand or value them.

You clearly live in Anglophone North America but most of us live (or try to live)in North America. Just as I try to call people by the pronouns they prefer, I try to use accents as required in people's names. Good manners and all that!

 

[facepalming_brooklynite]

I have to say, I think you're really stretching it here.

This city is majority foreign born and majority minority.

Lots of people who might have voted Harper voted Wynne once, a large section of the NDP vote is middle-aged white folk, who elected a Federal leader named Jagmeet.

Meanwhile a lot of Ford's support in Etobicoke originates in minority communities.

I don't want to brush over real prejudice both conscious and subconscious, no doubt it exists in a statistically significant way, but I think you're painting with too broad a brush.

Where do you think Saunders support base is?

I don't think most people in this City, irrespective of background have a prejudice against female candidates, or against non-angle sounding names.

Do some? Sure........ and that's not ok, of course. But I don't think we ought to exaggerate that factor.

My initial point was about the likelihood of Bailão or Saunders managing to get a centre-right coalition to coalesce behind them. That portion of the electorate unquestionably includes some people who are too racist or too sexist to vote for someone who is not a white man (whether they acknowledge that or whether it is a subconscious thing), and this makes it harder for Bailão or Saunders to win. I'm not claiming that a majority of voters are sexist or racist, just that this aspect is significant enough to influence the outcome by creating a lower ceiling for candidates on the centre-right who are not white men.

Yes, Toronto is majority foreign-born, but it's not a coincidence that the last three mayors were named Tory, Ford and Miller.

 

[afransen]

You clearly live in Anglophone North America but most of us live (or try to live)in North America. Just as I try to call people by the pronouns they prefer, I try to use accents as required in people's names. Good manners and all that!

People frequently misspell and mispronounce my name. I just roll with it.

 

[DSC]

People frequently misspell and mispronounce my name. I just roll with it.

That's fine - my point was that I consider @Admiral Beez comments about names with accents rather ill-informed. He appears not to even try to use accents and to this WASP, that's quite disrespectful and poorly informed. He reminds me of the 19th century immigration officers - all over the Empire - who westernised or phoneticised 'foreign names' because that was what they were used to. I think we should try a bit harder!

 

[PinkLucy]

That's fine - my point was that I consider @Admiral Beez comments about names with accents rather ill-informed. He appears not to even try to use accents and to this WASP, that's quite disrespectful and poorly informed. He reminds me of the 19th century immigration officers - all over the Empire - who westernised or phoneticised 'foreign names' because that was what they were used to. I think we should try a bit harder!

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As a WASP married to a non WASP, I have to agree. His non anglophone name is constantly Anglicized. It’s frustrating and annoying. His name is his name. It isn’t how anyone else chooses to pronounce it (usually Anglicized). And for the record, his family has lived in Canada for generations so he most definitely is as Canadian, or even more so, as anyone who butchers his name. And the same applies to my child who has a non Anglo name, complete with an accent.

 

[afransen]

As a WASP married to a non WASP, I have to agree. His non anglophone name is constantly Anglicized. It’s frustrating and annoying. His name is his name. It isn’t how anyone else chooses to pronounce it (usually Anglicized). And for the record, his family has lived in Canada for generations so he most definitely is as Canadian, or even more so, as anyone who butchers his name. And the same applies to my child who has a non Anglo name, complete with an accent.

I make best effort to pronounce people's names, but it is expecting too much for people to pronounce Italian names like an Italian, Polish names like a Pole, French names like a French, Chinese names like a Chinese. I am from a non-anglo background with a non-anglo name, and lots of people, native english speakers and foreign born mispronounce my name, usually substituting it with names they are more familiar with.

 

[PinkLucy]

You don’t have to sound like a native speaker of whatever language, but you can at least make an effort. Most people are willing to help with pronunciation and appreciate the effort.

 

[TonyV]

^ This thread has gone sideways (again) but heck, as a person with an unusual name I’ve had to put up with all sorts of mispronunciations. I’ve done my best to pronounce others’ names properly as a result. Keep being respectful.

Btw I speak four languages, all fluently,

 

[just east of the creek]

Try a name with strong Gaelic influences and see how many spell it or pronounce it. But you roll with it as most people are interested enough to ask. And on the flip side, I am absolutely horrible with accents and names, it’s a real weakness, and I find myself apologizing often and trying again. And I have been lucky to travel enough that the opposite should be true, but not so.

 

[adma]

New Mainstreet: Chow 34, Bailao 25, Saunders 11, Furey 10, Matlow 7, Hunter 5, Brown 2, Bradford a Jakobek-esque 1. So Mainstreet's digging in on Bailao's behalf--yet Chow's margin increased 1 point.

And new Forum Research: Chow 29 (down 3), Bailao 20 (up 7), Saunders 15, Furey 11, Matlow 8, Hunter 5, Bradford 3. So now it isn't just Mainstreet showing a Bailao surge.

 

[Jonny5]

New Mainstreet: Chow 34, Bailao 25, Saunders 11, Furey 10, Matlow 7, Hunter 5, Brown 2, Bradford a Jakobek-esque 1. So Mainstreet's digging in on Bailao's behalf--yet Chow's margin increased 1 point.

And new Forum Research: Chow 29 (down 3), Bailao 20 (up 7), Saunders 15, Furey 11, Matlow 8, Hunter 5, Bradford 3. So now it isn't just Mainstreet showing a Bailao surge.

The "what ifs" here for Saunders not having run are really interesting.
It would probably be a Chow vs. Bailao race with either one possibly winning.

 

[Andy_in_Toronto]

Overall the probability of Chow winning did practically not change:

338Canada Toronto | Poll Analysis & Electoral Projections

338canada.com

Update of the two polls above will be added today!