W. K. Lis
Superstar
If there was only a two-party system, it becomes a yes-no vote. Instead, with three or more parties, the highest number of votes (but still less than 50%) gets in, with the other parties splitting the vote.
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2014 Ontario Provincial Election
- Thread starter ShonTron
- Start date
If there was only a two-party system, it becomes a yes-no vote. Instead, with three or more parties, the highest number of votes (but still less than 50%) gets in, with the other parties splitting the vote.
Electrify
Senior Member
Hence my reference to Poe's law...
BobbyS
New Member
Long time reader and first time poster here. I love following the talk in Toronto regarding the development (especially transit) and since we have a decent discussion going on about the provincial election, I figured I would offer my point of view as something to consider.
I've long been a conservative supporter which is not the standard in Toronto but I've generally found that my values fall a little bit more to the right of centre than anywhere else. Unfortunately this time around I am unhappy with all of the choices that we have been left with. With NDP Andrea Horwath I really can't tell what she stands for since she voted down a budget that I surely thought she would be in favour of. With Kathleen Wynne I think she is getting a bit of a bad rap for the errors made by McGuinty, but focusing specifically on her, I am not a fan of the Ontario Pension Plan as I think CPP reform would be more beneficial. That being said it doesn't look like Stephen Harper has any intention to improve CPP to provide for a more secure retirement for Canadians. Then we have Tim Hudak. He is supposed to be my guy. Unfortunately he is just too far to the right for my taste. First it was his push for Right to Work legislation. For anyone who knows anything about RTW laws they will see that all of the states with RTW have lower average wages, poorer working conditions for employees and a lower standard of living. Look at a map of the USA and ask yourself which states you would want to live in if you had to choose one. California maybe? New York? You will notice a trend that these are not Right to Work states like Alabama for example. The initial impact of Right to Work definitely shows a slight increase in the employment rate, but it is not really helping society if more people are working and making a fraction of their previous wages. While Hudak has thankfully publicly backed away from this policy, he still maintains many documents on his website touting Right to Work as the way to go. I think that this strategy of pitting workers and workers in the public/private sector is nothing more than a strategy to collectively drive all wages and benefits down, eventually make all pensions both public and private a thing of the past and see health benefits disappear.
Despite the presence of these documents on Hudak's website I was still willing to give him a chance until last week. When he made the announcements that A) He plans to layoff 100,000 people and B) He plans to give a 30% tax break to corporations, that was the last straw for me for a number of reasons. We have already been told by the former Bank of Canada Governor Mark Carney that corporations are sitting on billions of dollars right now that they are not investing. Giving them 30% less in taxes with no conditions to create jobs and pass those savings on to new employees is not going the situation. Having 100,000 former middle class families turning to the unemployment line is going to put an increased burden on EI in the immediate term and the bigger impacts will be felt by all of us in both the public and private labour markets. Having 100,000 more people desperately looking for work plays into the hands of large corporate employers and nobody else. It is simply supply and demand - create an excess supply of labour and there will be huge pressure on the wages and benefits of everyone who is employed. Wanted that raise? Were expecting that bonus? I know I and many others can expect to lose out on these things only to be told by our Manager that "Looks at how bad things are out there for people right now, you should just be happy that you have a job". I cannot get on board with this culture of creating fear for all employees in both the public/private sector to the point that we should just be happy with the status quo and never strive to see things collectively become improved for society.
As someone with a Masters in economics, I figured Hudak would also be aware that by laying off so many middle class income earners, there will be a huge ripple effect on the economy. Do renovations? Painting? Building Decks? Well I know that all of the clients who are teachers or government workers of any sort are not going to have the money to hire you to do work any more. Less new cars will be purchased, less money to put kids in sports for many families bringing up the costs for those of us who can still afford it. The list goes on and on. Ripple effect will be absolutely devastating. Something tells me that Tim is well aware of this and that it is exactly what his corporate friends would like. I also find it extremely hypocritical that his wife seems to have bee on the Sunshine list for several years taking in excess of $200,000 in some years.
All that said I really am sickened by the lack of good choices. I am disgusted by the Gas Plants and E-Health, etc.....but I don't know how fair it is to lay that all on Wynne when she was not in power at the time. Andrea is just giving me nothing to get excited about at all and Tim well....you've read what I wrote above by now. I think one of the big problems is that none of the leaders are focusing on the fact that manufacturing leaving the province of Ontario is not a partisan issue or problem, it is the effect of globalization and corporations choosing higher profits by moving plants to places like Bangladesh, Laos and Thailand rather than have products made in Canada. Reality is that regardless of which party is in power we need to collectively reinvent ourselves as a province and nation and find a new way to innovate our economy.
On that note.....this whole situation sucks. I hate all three options. That being said I feel that Tim Hudak is actually the worst of the three so I will vote for the non conservative candidate in my riding who historically gets the highest percentage of the votes. My hope is that this will result in a very slim minority government that requires the parties to reinvent themselves and hopefully the next time around the PCs will elect a leader with a vision that I can get behind.
-B
I've long been a conservative supporter which is not the standard in Toronto but I've generally found that my values fall a little bit more to the right of centre than anywhere else. Unfortunately this time around I am unhappy with all of the choices that we have been left with. With NDP Andrea Horwath I really can't tell what she stands for since she voted down a budget that I surely thought she would be in favour of. With Kathleen Wynne I think she is getting a bit of a bad rap for the errors made by McGuinty, but focusing specifically on her, I am not a fan of the Ontario Pension Plan as I think CPP reform would be more beneficial. That being said it doesn't look like Stephen Harper has any intention to improve CPP to provide for a more secure retirement for Canadians. Then we have Tim Hudak. He is supposed to be my guy. Unfortunately he is just too far to the right for my taste. First it was his push for Right to Work legislation. For anyone who knows anything about RTW laws they will see that all of the states with RTW have lower average wages, poorer working conditions for employees and a lower standard of living. Look at a map of the USA and ask yourself which states you would want to live in if you had to choose one. California maybe? New York? You will notice a trend that these are not Right to Work states like Alabama for example. The initial impact of Right to Work definitely shows a slight increase in the employment rate, but it is not really helping society if more people are working and making a fraction of their previous wages. While Hudak has thankfully publicly backed away from this policy, he still maintains many documents on his website touting Right to Work as the way to go. I think that this strategy of pitting workers and workers in the public/private sector is nothing more than a strategy to collectively drive all wages and benefits down, eventually make all pensions both public and private a thing of the past and see health benefits disappear.
Despite the presence of these documents on Hudak's website I was still willing to give him a chance until last week. When he made the announcements that A) He plans to layoff 100,000 people and B) He plans to give a 30% tax break to corporations, that was the last straw for me for a number of reasons. We have already been told by the former Bank of Canada Governor Mark Carney that corporations are sitting on billions of dollars right now that they are not investing. Giving them 30% less in taxes with no conditions to create jobs and pass those savings on to new employees is not going the situation. Having 100,000 former middle class families turning to the unemployment line is going to put an increased burden on EI in the immediate term and the bigger impacts will be felt by all of us in both the public and private labour markets. Having 100,000 more people desperately looking for work plays into the hands of large corporate employers and nobody else. It is simply supply and demand - create an excess supply of labour and there will be huge pressure on the wages and benefits of everyone who is employed. Wanted that raise? Were expecting that bonus? I know I and many others can expect to lose out on these things only to be told by our Manager that "Looks at how bad things are out there for people right now, you should just be happy that you have a job". I cannot get on board with this culture of creating fear for all employees in both the public/private sector to the point that we should just be happy with the status quo and never strive to see things collectively become improved for society.
As someone with a Masters in economics, I figured Hudak would also be aware that by laying off so many middle class income earners, there will be a huge ripple effect on the economy. Do renovations? Painting? Building Decks? Well I know that all of the clients who are teachers or government workers of any sort are not going to have the money to hire you to do work any more. Less new cars will be purchased, less money to put kids in sports for many families bringing up the costs for those of us who can still afford it. The list goes on and on. Ripple effect will be absolutely devastating. Something tells me that Tim is well aware of this and that it is exactly what his corporate friends would like. I also find it extremely hypocritical that his wife seems to have bee on the Sunshine list for several years taking in excess of $200,000 in some years.
All that said I really am sickened by the lack of good choices. I am disgusted by the Gas Plants and E-Health, etc.....but I don't know how fair it is to lay that all on Wynne when she was not in power at the time. Andrea is just giving me nothing to get excited about at all and Tim well....you've read what I wrote above by now. I think one of the big problems is that none of the leaders are focusing on the fact that manufacturing leaving the province of Ontario is not a partisan issue or problem, it is the effect of globalization and corporations choosing higher profits by moving plants to places like Bangladesh, Laos and Thailand rather than have products made in Canada. Reality is that regardless of which party is in power we need to collectively reinvent ourselves as a province and nation and find a new way to innovate our economy.
On that note.....this whole situation sucks. I hate all three options. That being said I feel that Tim Hudak is actually the worst of the three so I will vote for the non conservative candidate in my riding who historically gets the highest percentage of the votes. My hope is that this will result in a very slim minority government that requires the parties to reinvent themselves and hopefully the next time around the PCs will elect a leader with a vision that I can get behind.
-B
JasonParis
Moderator
Nice analysis. I don't agree with you on everything, but even though I veer a bit left, I agree on most.
Just curious, you briefly mention transit, but then didn't go into it? If you were voting ONLY on that item, who would you support. I'm actually quite curious.
Just curious, you briefly mention transit, but then didn't go into it? If you were voting ONLY on that item, who would you support. I'm actually quite curious.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
IMO, a big issue is that Ontario has depended on big US owned firms for its manufacturing jobs. Quebec has a strong home-owned manufactoring sector made up of thousands of Quebecois owned firms making everything from furniture to aircraft, motorcycles to maple syrup. The other provinces also have strong domestically-owned industries such as oil, gas, mining and agriculture.
Only Ontario seems to have built a dependence on US-owned firms employing our people. Trouble is, the model that made that make sense died in the 1980s with free trade and globalization. So, the question is, what is Ontario's economic future in the post US-chain plant era? Ontario has lots of natural resources to extract and sell, for example.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
oh we got plenty of resources, just not many economically viable resources.
Electrify
Senior Member
I'm an Android fan, but could see myself switching to Blackberry if they ever decided to make their devices here rather than in China...
That said, I do fear that we are about to head towards a deep descent on the race to the bottom. I was chatting with an older bus driver yesterday, and his rant about how broken the Presto system is quickly turned into complaints about other Liberal scandals. I asked him how he felt about Hudak, but didn't really get a response... Odds are is if he is one of the 100,000 who loses his job it won't matter much, as I get the feeling he is closing in on retirement anyways.
The whole situation shows just how much like the Republicans south of the border. We like to act as if we are so superior and refined compared to Americans, but the reality is that we can be just as shallow as they are. I get the feeling that the only thing keeping our public health care in place is fear of change, and even that opinion could be swayed if our government offered us enough tax breaks. If Hudak gets in and Harper gets reelected, I predict that by 2025 the national health care system will look far different than it does now.
That said, I do fear that we are about to head towards a deep descent on the race to the bottom. I was chatting with an older bus driver yesterday, and his rant about how broken the Presto system is quickly turned into complaints about other Liberal scandals. I asked him how he felt about Hudak, but didn't really get a response... Odds are is if he is one of the 100,000 who loses his job it won't matter much, as I get the feeling he is closing in on retirement anyways.
The whole situation shows just how much like the Republicans south of the border. We like to act as if we are so superior and refined compared to Americans, but the reality is that we can be just as shallow as they are. I get the feeling that the only thing keeping our public health care in place is fear of change, and even that opinion could be swayed if our government offered us enough tax breaks. If Hudak gets in and Harper gets reelected, I predict that by 2025 the national health care system will look far different than it does now.
StatGeek
Active Member
First Ford supporters will be Ford supporters no matter what. The idea of A will equal a more motivated Ford supporters is just illogical. They will vote for him no matter who wins the top chair in QP.
Second I think it's very different supporting a party and a candidate. I know Ford fans want to "normalize" their fandom for him, but it's just not normal. You could dislike what the Liberal did and still vote for them because they represent the best political agenda that you agree with. You can logically dislike what the liberals did with the gas plants for example but look at Conservative and NDP and think their policy is wrong for the province. I think the Harper conservatives federally is past it's due date and are filled with scandal as well, but again I understand loyal conservative would have a hard time switching entire parties.
But Ford supporters are different, they are supporting the man/family over anything else. They say things like "No other person can do that job" so no other person in CH, QP or Ottawa could do what Ford does? There is no other politician with similar agenda than him? That's why I think Ford fans are way more illogical than political party supporters.
Ford supporters is more like people who cheer for a party nominee candidate and that candidate is full of scandal and obviously not the best choice but still get bitter that they were not chosen and will not support the party candidate who doesn't have the cloud over his/her head
Canuck
Active Member
Hello all,
I'll interject the discussion for a shameless plug.
I'm running for the Green Party in Scarborough Southwest.
Like many of you, I'm extremely underwhelmed with the vision of the 'big 3 parties' - especially in terms of urban issues and transit.
I'm carrying the banner for the Green Party in Scarborough Southwest because I want to raise urban issues at the door and in debates, especially how Toronto does not have the tools and taxation powers at its disposal to compete with global cities.
I'll gladly accept any campaign donation, and/or any sweat equity (i.e., door knocking) you'd like to provide.
Send me a PM if you'd like to help out.
- David Del Grande
No matter who you support - be sure to vote.
I'll interject the discussion for a shameless plug.
I'm running for the Green Party in Scarborough Southwest.
Like many of you, I'm extremely underwhelmed with the vision of the 'big 3 parties' - especially in terms of urban issues and transit.
I'm carrying the banner for the Green Party in Scarborough Southwest because I want to raise urban issues at the door and in debates, especially how Toronto does not have the tools and taxation powers at its disposal to compete with global cities.
I'll gladly accept any campaign donation, and/or any sweat equity (i.e., door knocking) you'd like to provide.
Send me a PM if you'd like to help out.
- David Del Grande
No matter who you support - be sure to vote.
JasonParis
Moderator
Good luck David. You'd have my vote if I lived in SSW!
Electrify
Senior Member
Worth noting that Canada used to be a two party system for several decades after the NDP was established. For most of their history, and even arguably today, they were a fringe party.
The Greens may not win this election, but if you do vote for them, you will be helping to bring more choice to our democracy.
The Greens may not win this election, but if you do vote for them, you will be helping to bring more choice to our democracy.
nfitz
Superstar
So yesterday the most recent poll showed a signficant Tory lead in the polls, especially for the most likely voters, putting them in majority territory.
Today we have almost the reverse, with the Liberals now in majority territory.
It's going to be a long campaign ...
Today we have almost the reverse, with the Liberals now in majority territory.
It's going to be a long campaign ...
Electrify
Senior Member
Admiral Beez
Superstar
There's the Ring of Fire http://www.thestar.com/business/eco..._fire_must_be_a_national_priority_report.html Granted the reported tax potential is only about double what the Liberals wasted on the gas plants, however the jobs potential is good.
Then there's the possibility of future ice free shipping ports in Hudson's and James Bay, though we'll compete with Quebec and Manitoba.
And then there's always farming, if we can only stop ourselves from building on top of our best lands.
As an immigrant myself it's not a pleasant suggestion, but we also need to ask if we need tens of thousands of new Ontarians each year when the locals are competing for scarce jobs?
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King of Kensington
Senior Member
More evidence that Ontario no longer has a social democratic party. The ONDP is running to the right of the Liberals!
http://www.thestar.com/news/queensp...ws_ndp_would_cut_600_million_in_spending.html
http://www.thestar.com/news/queensp...ws_ndp_would_cut_600_million_in_spending.html