2014 Municipal Election: Toronto Transit Plans

[TheTigerMaster]

I don't agree with the congestion charge, but I'd be very, very happy to have the other things you mentioned.

Ehlow: we'll know how fare integration will work soon enough. Metrolinx is looking at looking at their options.

 

[ehlow]

That's the way it works in parts of France, Germany and England. Of course, London has high pricing for the underground and has discounted rates for bus only trips (Underground is $16CAD for peak period one-way far across 9 zones). Heathrow to downtown is $9.10 CAD at peak period via the Picadilly line, off-peak is closer to $5.

Fare by distance people are pushing a flat price per km regardless of mode or operator.

I don't mind a premium for GO but it can't increase the trip cost by 300%. A 50% bump ($4 for a trip involving GO and TTC) might be reasonable to both customers and the operators.

If say, GO RER Lakeshore happened, then I'd like to be able to take the subway down to Union, then take RER one stop west to Spadina or Liberty Village without it costing a huge amount (or ideally, it's just part of the TTC and covered by the one fare).

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Ideally RER shouldn't be used for local travel like that. That's what the Relief Line is for.

 

[ehlow]

Ideally RER shouldn't be used for local travel like that. That's what the Relief Line is for.

I've got to strongly disagree with you here...

Firstly, a relief subway is 15 years away, and probably will not even go west of University, so for all intents and purposes it won't help anybody go to Liberty Village for possibly decades.

Secondly, GO already has a stop at Liberty Village, so if it's frequent electrified service, why not have it behave like a subway? The shoulder areas of downtown are growing insanely and it's not good enough to say there might be a subway in 15-25 years when there's a perfectly good electric train frequently running which could be good for both regional and local travel.

 

[ksun]

I actually think that based on the stops on the map, it could be useful for travel within Toronto and downtown Toronto.

For example, if the frequency on this line is high enough (at least every 6 min let's say), then it could be well worth it to take it from Union to Liberty Village rather than the King streetcar, since the streetcar is too full & too slow.

Trips like: St Clair West to Spadina & King would also be much faster.

If GO RER adds stops for more subway like stop spacing and adjusts fares such that it's affordable for short trips, then great. We'll see I guess.

Smart Track won't do a thing for downtown commute because of the location of the rail tracks. Downtown Toronto exists north of Front st and south of College between say Jarvis and Bathurst. That's where people want to go, and that's where the streetcar moves the slowest, and having a rail line south of Front st with no stop east of Bathurst except CityPlace is not gonna help much with traffic on King/Queen.

Liberty Village is NOT downtown. It is not even within easy walk distance to the edge of downtown. In order to "relieve" anything, a new line must be north of King st with stops in the core.

As to Smart track faster than King streetcar, it is only because the king street car isn't functioning in the best way. Cut a few stops and make it ROW, and I am sure that it will be much more useful than the Smart track that only stops at Union and CityPlace. Why do people go to CityPlace and Union Station anyway? And I doubt it will be ever as frequent as 6 minutes. 15 minutes sounds more realistic, and that's hardly frequent enough to local travel needs.

 

[ehlow]

Smart Track won't do a thing for downtown commute because of the location of the rail tracks. Downtown Toronto exists north of Front st and south of College between say Jarvis and Bathurst. That's where people want to go, and that's where the streetcar moves the slowest, and having a rail line south of Front st with no stop east of Bathurst except CityPlace is not gonna help much with traffic on King/Queen.

Liberty Village is NOT downtown. It is not even within easy walk distance to the edge of downtown. In order to "relieve" anything, a new line must be north of King st with stops in the core.

As to Smart track faster than King streetcar, it is only because the king street car isn't functioning in the best way. Cut a few stops and make it ROW, and I am sure that it will be much more useful than the Smart track that only stops at Union and CityPlace. Why do people go to CityPlace and Union Station anyway?

Whether Liberty Village is called "downtown" or not doesn't matter. What matters is there's a huge amount of people moving into in condos in that area, as well as many jobs & office locations, and transit options to get from & to there are not good enough.

 

[BurlOak]

You seem to forget that SmartTrack will eliminate the planned Relief Line. That is not the official plan.

I do not think that SmartTrack will eliminate the DRL - politics will.

The swing ridings in Toronto are the inner and middle 905 and maybe the outer 416. These are the areas that need to be catered to to ensure victory. As such, Regional improvements with minor Toronto station additions are the recipe for re-election. A DRL is viewed as too downtown centric, and the downtown already supports the Liberals quite well.

Maybe we need to work on that idea of having a branch of StartTrack go from Kennedy to Markham, and another branch go from Kennedy to STC and Malvern. that may get a bit more "relief" for Y-B. In the West, maybe the branches could be Pearson and Brampton, or maybe Tory's Airport Corporate Centre.

The DRL was not considered at all in the development on Transit City, and I doubt that it has enough supporters to be made a priority. The DRL is always talked about, but when push comes to shove, it always takes a back seat to something else. Lets find a way to make the "something else" work as well as possible.

 

[ksun]

Whether Liberty Village is called "downtown" or not doesn't matter. What matters is there's a huge amount of people moving into in condos in that area, as well as many jobs & office locations, and transit options to get from & to there are not good enough.

True.
But if the purpose is to get people there for work, well, that essentially serves as a suburban commute line like the typical Go service. I doubt anyone really needs to go to Liberty village if not for work. And isn't there already a go stop near liberty village as someone pointed out? And I don't know if there are enough jobs at LV that warrants another line just for that purpose.

In terms of moving the large number of people who live at LV, as I said, an improved new all door boarding 504 will (ROW, with only 7/8 stops from Sudbury/Stranchan to King/Bay) do a much better job than Smart track, which only brings people to Union Station. And 504 will always be more frequent than Smart Track.

 

[ksun]

A DRL is viewed as too downtown centric, and the downtown already supports the Liberals quite well.

It is ironic that a proposed line with the holy mission of bringing mostly suburbanites to their work place is considered too "downtown centric", only because most of it is located in downtown.

At the end of the day, real downtowners like myself will hardly ever need the DRL, especially during rush hour unless it goes well above Spadina (which is unlikely), because, why do I need it when the entire downtown south of College pretty much is within walking distance.

 

[ehlow]

True.
But if the purpose is to get people there for work, well, that essentially serves as a suburban commute line like the typical Go service. I doubt anyone really needs to go to Liberty village if not for work. And isn't there already a go stop near liberty village as someone pointed out? And I don't know if there are enough jobs at LV that warrants another line just for that purpose.

In terms of moving the large number of people who live at LV, as I said, an improved new all door boarding 504 will (ROW, with only 7/8 stops from Sudbury/Stranchan to King/Bay) do a much better job than Smart track, which only brings people to Union Station. And 504 will always be more frequent than Smart Track.

Yeah, there's already a GO stop there, but I'm just saying that once GO RER happens, hopefully it will be priced so that people can affordably go there from Union station, using it in a similar way as the subway. Same with going to events at the Ex, there are lots of concerts, sporting events at the ex. If that rapid transit corridor were priced right, people could use it instead of the harbourfront streetcar, which is fairly slow & low capacity.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It is ironic that a proposed line with the holy mission of bringing mostly suburbanites to their work place is considered too "downtown centric", only because most of it is located in downtown.

At the end of the day, real downtowners like myself will hardly ever need the DRL, especially during rush hour unless it goes well above Spadina (which is unlikely), because, why do I need it when the entire downtown south of College pretty much is within walking distance.

I live downtown. I cannot think of a single trip in the past year where the Relief Line would have helped me. Actually the Scarborough Subway extension and TYSSE both would have been far more useful for me in the past year

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I do not think that SmartTrack will eliminate the DRL - politics will.

The swing ridings in Toronto are the inner and middle 905 and maybe the outer 416. These are the areas that need to be catered to to ensure victory. As such, Regional improvements with minor Toronto station additions are the recipe for re-election. A DRL is viewed as too downtown centric, and the downtown already supports the Liberals quite well.

You say that you don't think SmartTrack will eliminate the Relief Line, but then you go on to completely contradict yourself.

John Tory's $8 Billion RER plan is a plan to regionally improve transit, with minor stations within the core of the city.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Maybe we need to work on that idea of having a branch of StartTrack go from Kennedy to Markham, and another branch go from Kennedy to STC and Malvern. that may get a bit more "relief" for Y-B. In the West, maybe the branches could be Pearson and Brampton, or maybe Tory's Airport Corporate Centre.

No, we don't need to work on that. What we need to work on is implementing the excellent plan we already have.

Do you like SmartTrack? Well great. GO RER is exactly that.

Do you also like Relief Line? Well great. We'll give you both of those, for less than the cost of SmartTrack. It's an amazing deal.

Quit debating and get er done. There is absolutely no reason to be debating this overpriced and completely infeasible SmartTrack proposal. We already have a plan that will achieve everything SmartTrack does and more, for a lower cost. SmartTrack has one and only one purpose: to get Tory elected by pandering to suburban voters.

 

[salsa]

No, we don't need to work on that. What we need to work on is implementing the excellent plan we already have.

Do you like SmartTrack? Well great. GO RER is exactly that.

Do you also like Relief Line? Well great. We'll give you both of those, for less than the cost of SmartTrack. It's an amazing deal.

Quit debating and get er done. There is absolutely no reason to be debating this overpriced and completely infeasible SmartTrack proposal. We already have a plan that will achieve everything SmartTrack does and more, for a lower cost. SmartTrack has one and only one purpose: to get Tory elected by pandering to suburban voters.

I would also add that if you like LRT on Finch and Sheppard, you will get those too if Tory doesn't become mayor.

 

[TOareaFan]

True.
But if the purpose is to get people there for work, well, that essentially serves as a suburban commute line like the typical Go service. I doubt anyone really needs to go to Liberty village if not for work.

Well, there are other reasons to got to LV besides working there....like going to the restaurants and bars....like going to events at the Ex/Ricoh/BMO Field/Ampitheatre.

And isn't there already a go stop near liberty village as someone pointed out? And I don't know if there are enough jobs at LV that warrants another line just for that purpose.

The stop near LV is the Exhibition stop and unless you are on the Lakeshore line you have no access to it. Would you build another line? Of course not. But since at least two other lines Milton and KW pass right through LV on the way to Union it sure is worth investigating whether you can build a station there.