VIA Rail

[Bordercollie]

The timing of VIA's seeking an independent report is interesting - one would think these are the sort of issues that would be reported on prior to committing to a legacy fleet rebuild. In another country we might have a rail regulator independent enough to see a development like this, call in the train operator to demand a timetable for replacement with safe vehicles, and tell the public it's happening - it would then be for the government to either find the money or reduce the scope of the train operator's obligations to the extent they have enough safe vehicles to operate them. I don't believe we have that here...

Lol. But in any case the HEP rebuilds have been continuing, and they haven't abruptly decided to cancel the program so there must be a merit to continue it. With the LRC's it was determined not feasible and eventually a replacement was sourced.

I'm sure that they have known for some time that the structural integrity of the cars were compromised. But they said that about the carbon steel cars and some of them are still around with heritage railways.

So I guess either a RFP for a replacement will need to be created in the near future or we won't be seeing a national railway outside of the corridor.

What would be a ballpark figure to replace the non corridor fleet? And how long would the procurement process be?

 

[crs1026]

It's worth noting what VIA is saying in its most recent 2021-2025 Corporate Plan

I haven't poked around in VIA's Annual Reports or Plans lately, but I recall that the tone of earlier comments had become a bit more assertive about the fleet needing replacement promptly. But that was before the current leadership was appointed. The latest report appears to suggest that there is still time, provided the renewal program is advanced. And indicates that procurement will be very lengthy.

As much as I love the old Budd-built fleet, it's good money after bad at this point to keep rebuilding it.

- Paul

 

[Bordercollie]

It's worth noting what VIA is saying in its most recent 2021-2025 Corporate Plan

I haven't poked around in VIA's Annual Reports or Plans lately, but I recall that the tone of earlier comments had become a bit more assertive about the fleet needing replacement promptly. But that was before the current leadership was appointed. The latest report appears to suggest that there is still time, provided the renewal program is advanced. And indicates that procurement will be very lengthy.

As much as I love the old Budd-built fleet, it's good money after bad at this point to keep rebuilding it.

- Paul

View attachment 433340

The question that needs to be raised is will this life extension be enough to last until a new fleet is procured. Even if that started today we are still ten years out.



So for now the park car will be a ruined experience

 

[Urban Sky]

So for now the park car will be a ruined experience

None of the seats in the dome and bullet lounge faces towards the back, but sure, if all you care about is to twist your head while staring for hours onto the tracks from the back of the train, then indeed, your entire experience might be ruined...

 

[crs1026]

The question that needs to be raised is will this life extension be enough to last until a new fleet is procured. Even if that started today we are still ten years out.

I would sure like to know the back story of how the buffer cars mandate came to be. I would like to think that some P Eng with integrity put their foot down and said, look, I simply refuse to sign off on any more cars in their current condition.
But the conspiracy theorist in me wonders if somebody deliberately brought the issue to a head, either to get the train off the tracks once and for all ..... or conversely, to bring the replacement issue to a fish-or-cut-bait point, or even just to get the renewal money flowing.

So for now the park car will be a ruined experience

For the Prestige class passengers, sort of. Few will explicitly notice (few travellers know enough about trains to know how the train is supposed to be marshalled, and even there, very few trains in the world retain a rear-end observation). But the experience is definitely diminished, and that has to affect value for money and marketability somehow. This is just another in the death-by-a-thousand-paper-cuts world that is VIA.

Having said that, I do not foresee any new order retaining either a tapered end-view car or a dome style car design. Which is a huge loss, IMHO, but that's progress for you.

Now, a Raeder style car with an open platform, I could get behind.

- Paul

 

[Bordercollie]

I would sure like to know the back story of how the buffer cars mandate came to be. I would like to think that some P Eng with integrity put their foot down and said, look, I simply refuse to sign off on any more cars in their current condition.
But the conspiracy theorist in me wonders if somebody deliberately brought the issue to a head, either to get the train off the tracks once and for all ..... or conversely, to bring the replacement issue to a fish-or-cut-bait point, or even just to get the renewal money flowing.



For the Prestige class passengers, sort of. Few will explicitly notice (few travellers know enough about trains to know how the train is supposed to be marshalled, and even there, very few trains in the world retain a rear-end observation). But the experience is definitely diminished, and that has to affect value for money and marketability somehow. This is just another in the death-by-a-thousand-paper-cuts world that is VIA.

Having said that, I do not foresee any new order retaining either a tapered end-view car or a dome style car design. Which is a huge loss, IMHO, but that's progress for you.

Now, a Raeder style car with an open platform, I could get behind.

- Paul

View attachment 433370

 

[Bordercollie]

If the whole fleet is the problem then adding a buffer car is just a band aid. It does say pending further investigation so maybe they are going to do a crash test and see what the results are.

But using the park car as a buffer car means no access to the rear dome and no prestige class (except for the second last car). But it's also a waste of lucrative revenue, and takes away from the nostalgia of the train ride.

 

[Railrunner]

The timing of VIA's seeking an independent report is interesting - one would think these are the sort of issues that would be reported on prior to committing to a legacy fleet rebuild. In another country we might have a rail regulator independent enough to see a development like this, call in the train operator to demand a timetable for replacement with safe vehicles, and tell the public it's happening - it would then be for the government to either find the money or reduce the scope of the train operator's obligations to the extent they have enough safe vehicles to operate them. I don't believe we have that here...

Can someone explain this scandal? What did Via do this time! I thought we would have a new fleet top down.

 

[Bordercollie]

Can someone explain this scandal? What did Via do this time! I thought we would have a new fleet top down.

I think what they mean is that VIA is regulated by Transport Canada. Both parties need to work together to keep each other in the loop about any potential safety issues with the fleet.

So what they mean is that it's possible VIA knew and kept it under wraps, and someone tipped off Transport Canada. Or something of along those lines.

It could be that the contractor performing the rebuild asked about some safety issue during rebuild which triggered an investigation.

 

[cplchanb]

The timing of VIA's seeking an independent report is interesting - one would think these are the sort of issues that would be reported on prior to committing to a legacy fleet rebuild. In another country we might have a rail regulator independent enough to see a development like this, call in the train operator to demand a timetable for replacement with safe vehicles, and tell the public it's happening - it would then be for the government to either find the money or reduce the scope of the train operator's obligations to the extent they have enough safe vehicles to operate them. I don't believe we have that here...

its just one of the typical blunders for crown corps... they sit on it until theres no option but to act. same goes for the F18 replacement program and the surface combatant replacement program as well... no accountability

 

[Bordercollie]

its just one of the typical blunders for crown corps... they sit on it until theres no option but to act. same goes for the F18 replacement program and the surface combatant replacement program as well... no accountability

The fleet needs to be replaced, it's just a matter of commitment of funding. Considering the fact that we are spending billions of dollars to reduce our impact on the environment you would think a few hundred million dollars for fleet replacement would be a drop in the bucket especially if it can be procured with Canadian content. Maybe not manufactured in Canada but components from local suppliers.

Better get started on that RFP. What was the result of the RFQ for the legacy fleet? Was it ever released? I'm curious to know if anyone responded.

With Siemens chosen to replace the Amfleet cars I don't know if they would have sufficient capacity to build cars for VIA unless they build a new facility in Canada. Alstom could build them in Thunder Bay, unless they win a big contract for GO Bi-levels. But they have the Quebec plant as well so I'm sure that they could make space.

Other contenders might be CAF, or Hyundai?

 

[crs1026]

Can someone explain this scandal? What did Via do this time! I thought we would have a new fleet top down.

One has to go a bit further back. VIA's 5-year plans are here.

VIA's 2017 5-year plan is silent on the condition of the long distance fleet, other than to note that all VIA's equipment was nearing end of life.

In the 2017 Federal Budget, VIA received approval and funding for a Heritage Fleet Modernization program.This program was first documented in VIA's 2018 5-year plan. Originally, the plan was mostly related to interiors and key systems. The 2018 Plan mentions the modernization of 42 cars partly for Corridor service and partly to shift long distance coaches to the Corridor to bridge the gap until a Corridor fleet replacement could happen. The 2018 and 2019 plans both report an intent to address Chateau, Diner, and Skyline cars, but the only contract awarded related to 4 diners.

When COVID hit in 2020, there was a crash program to inspect the entire long distance fleet. Apparently there were concerns even then about the effects of aging. The 2020 5-year plan simply noted that stuff doesn't last forever.

There was funding released in 2020 acknowledging the need to repair cracks and corrosion. See here.

The 2021 plan notes that the discoveries of 2020 led to changes in the scope of the Modernization Plan. The Plan also refers to a $152M program which is "to explore the replacement of its Long Distance and Regional fleet". (That's a lot of money to "explore" something....sigh.....). I haven't tried to find this program in the federal budget documents anywhere. The gist of the rescoping is to address SOGR issues only but not to upgrade interiors or systems as planned.

I am wishing that I had kept versions of what was said about this program in the past. One suspects the web information has been rewritten as the program scope has evolved..There isn't a lot of information suggesting that anything beyond coaches and the four diners were ever improved.... and the 41 Manor sleepers are not mentioned. It's not clear if the conversion of Chateau cars and Park cars to Prestige service included fixing the bodies themselves.

I am tempted to wonder about the change in scope and the somewhat desperate claims that the fleet has life left in it ... but this is how my kitchen reno started out, so I have some empathy for what VIA may be encountering. Likely a new discovery every day.

- Paul

 

[rbt]

The fleet needs to be replaced, it's just a matter of commitment of funding. Considering the fact that we are spending billions of dollars to reduce our impact on the environment you would think a few hundred million dollars for fleet replacement would be a drop in the bucket especially if it can be procured with Canadian content. Maybe not manufactured in Canada but components from local suppliers.

Land cruises aren't much better for the environment than sea cruises: Cancelling the service entirely would be the only environmentally friendly move.

The corridor has promise from an environmental perspective but for point-to-point travel the Canadian is terrible in that regard.

 

[Bordercollie]

One has to go a bit further back. VIA's 5-year plans are here.

VIA's 2017 5-year plan is silent on the condition of the long distance fleet, other than to note that all VIA's equipment was nearing end of life.

In the 2017 Federal Budget, VIA received approval and funding for a Heritage Fleet Modernization program.This program was first documented in VIA's 2018 5-year plan. Originally, the plan was mostly related to interiors and key systems. The 2018 Plan mentions the modernization of 42 cars partly for Corridor service and partly to shift long distance coaches to the Corridor to bridge the gap until a Corridor fleet replacement could happen. The 2018 and 2019 plans both report an intent to address Chateau, Diner, and Skyline cars, but the only contract awarded related to 4 diners.

When COVID hit in 2020, there was a crash program to inspect the entire long distance fleet. Apparently there were concerns even then about the effects of aging. The 2020 5-year plan simply noted that stuff doesn't last forever.

There was funding released in 2020 acknowledging the need to repair cracks and corrosion. See here.

The 2021 plan notes that the discoveries of 2020 led to changes in the scope of the Modernization Plan. The Plan also refers to a $152M program which is "to explore the replacement of its Long Distance and Regional fleet". (That's a lot of money to "explore" something....sigh.....). I haven't tried to find this program in the federal budget documents anywhere. The gist of the rescoping is to address SOGR issues only but not to upgrade interiors or systems as planned.

I am wishing that I had kept versions of what was said about this program in the past. One suspects the web information has been rewritten as the program scope has evolved..There isn't a lot of information suggesting that anything beyond coaches and the four diners were ever improved.... and the 41 Manor sleepers are not mentioned. It's not clear if the conversion of Chateau cars and Park cars to Prestige service included fixing the bodies themselves.

I am tempted to wonder about the change in scope and the somewhat desperate claims that the fleet has life left in it ... but this is how my kitchen reno started out, so I have some empathy for what VIA may be encountering. Likely a new discovery every day.

- Paul

Maybe that money went to this project:

VIA Rail’s Modernization

The Quebec City – Windsor corridor fleet replacement is part of VIA Rail’s transformation plan for Canadian passenger rail service. This plan also includes renovating a part of the rolling stock that operates on VIA Rail’s long-distance routes. Accordingly, the following work was announced earlier in 2018 at several locations:


17 accessible cars – Bombardier Transportation – La Pocatière
25 economy cars – Cad Railway Industries – Montréal
4 dining cars – Rail GD – Gaspésie
33 economy and business cars – VIA Rail – Montréal

This renovation work represents an investment of approximately $154 million, undertaken by 300 workers in Quebec.

I believe that the 17 accessible coaches were cancelled because they were in bad shape.

33 economy and business cars are the HEP II.
25 economy coaches are likely the ones used in the Canadian.
Since the accessible coaches were cancelled maybe they used that money to fix the Ten sets and give them a new coat of paint.
Maybe someone else has more details.

 

[Bordercollie]

Maybe that money went to this project:

VIA Rail’s Modernization

The Quebec City – Windsor corridor fleet replacement is part of VIA Rail’s transformation plan for Canadian passenger rail service. This plan also includes renovating a part of the rolling stock that operates on VIA Rail’s long-distance routes. Accordingly, the following work was announced earlier in 2018 at several locations:


17 accessible cars – Bombardier Transportation – La Pocatière
25 economy cars – Cad Railway Industries – Montréal
4 dining cars – Rail GD – Gaspésie
33 economy and business cars – VIA Rail – Montréal

This renovation work represents an investment of approximately $154 million, undertaken by 300 workers in Quebec.

I believe that the 17 accessible coaches were cancelled because they were in bad shape.

33 economy and business cars are the HEP II.
25 economy coaches are likely the ones used in the Canadian.
Since the accessible coaches were cancelled maybe they used that money to fix the Ten sets and give them a new coat of paint.
Maybe someone else has more details.

It's still federally mandated to serve remote communities, it won't look good to cancel the service out right.