GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[TOareaFan]

Makes sense to me.

To the extent that Etobicoke North has to be replaced because of other factors...yes. But neither location is a particularly great spot for a GO train and EN is, marginally, closer to residential users than Woodbine is.

2 things about the argument for a Woodbine station have always bothered me

1. the notion that keeps getting thrown out that with the expansion of Woodbine into a full on casino/entertainment venue there will be lots of new riders using the train to get there. Woodbine is (and every plan I have seen for it is) a north facing building with the entertainment being north of the track.....the tracks, however, are south of the track and the stables and the practice/exercise track.......not sure how attractive it will be for people going for a night at the casino to take the train out there with that layout;
2. the "it is easier to connect to the airport" than Etobicoke North is. While this is true it is also true of Malton, and while it has always been true of Malton it is not something we have ever bothered doing.

So, yes, if EN has to be replaced Woodbine makes some sense....but I would just be a bit cautious on the expectations side....it is always going to be a fairly remote, hard to get to, lightly used station (IMO).

 

[TOareaFan]

No, they need the 4th track and tunnel under the 401. And they dont want to offer more service that would disrupt construction.

running a train, say, once an hour at 8 or 9 at night on a weeknight would disturb the tunnel digging? running a train once an hour on a Sunday needs more tracks than they use now during peak times?

mmm.?

I think the reason they don't run evening and weekend trains is because they have not been allowed to by the owner of the tracks.

 

[robmausser]

To the extent that Etobicoke North has to be replaced because of other factors...yes. But neither location is a particularly great spot for a GO train and EN is, marginally, closer to residential users than Woodbine is.

View attachment 166051

2 things about the argument for a Woodbine station have always bothered me

1. the notion that keeps getting thrown out that with the expansion of Woodbine into a full on casino/entertainment venue there will be lots of new riders using the train to get there. Woodbine is (and every plan I have seen for it is) a north facing building with the entertainment being north of the track.....the tracks, however, are south of the track and the stables and the practice/exercise track.......not sure how attractive it will be for people going for a night at the casino to take the train out there with that layout;
2. the "it is easier to connect to the airport" than Etobicoke North is. While this is true it is also true of Malton, and while it has always been true of Malton it is not something we have ever bothered doing.

So, yes, if EN has to be replaced Woodbine makes some sense....but I would just be a bit cautious on the expectations side....it is always going to be a fairly remote, hard to get to, lightly used station (IMO).

Also EN is a good station for people driving on the 401 to get on the GO rather than continue their journey downtown.

I know people hate parking lot stations, but guess what, if you hate cars you should support them, because if not than those car drivers are just going to drive downtown.

I think they should keep Etobicoke North and alternate service between Woodbine station and EN, just like they are planning to do with Mimico/Park Lawn.

 

[smallspy]

Catenary. CP couldn't allow it even if they wanted, double stack freight.

Again - freight trains are not in-and-of themselves a detriment to installing catenary. There are locations on the North-East Corridor and around the Philadelphia area where double-stacks run under the wire every day.

An interesting article for a few reasons. The current Etobicoke North station is clearly temporary. There's no permanent station building (the old one, on the south side of the tracks, is now abandoned), and there's only one platform.

It's more interesting than that - Etobicoke North was never intended to be replaced as per the EAs, and I've never seen a plan for it in any of the internal documentation I've been given access to. This seems to be quite a recent development, perhaps as a result of the awarding of the tender for the tunnel under the 401.

That said - I too agree that a station at 27 makes a lot of sense for a bunch of different reasons. Perhaps, even as a way to institute a better connection with the UPX trains to and from Pearson for passengers from the west.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

An interesting article for a few reasons. The current Etobicoke North station is clearly temporary. There's no permanent station building (the old one, on the south side of the tracks, is now abandoned), and there's only one platform. That keeps the peak hour trains and hourly midday service out of the way of UPX, which uses the two south tracks. The widened 401 tunnel with four or five tracks is incompatible with the station there. Once the tunnel work is done and Metrolinx ready to put the tracks in, Etobicoke North would have to close. Etobicoke North is poorly situated anyway.

Woodbine Station offers several advantages. It's obvious that Woodbine Racetrack has too much land now, as horse racing has declined. It's now focused on other gaming. That's a lot of land for a parking lot, a bus loop, as well as other development along with continued horse racing. (The practice track would either have to be moved, or they'd use the main track.) The transit links are better - GO's buses to Woodbridge and Bolton would make a better connection to trains, it'd be within reach for YRT, and if UPX stopped at Woodbine, that would be great for rail passengers from Brampton/Guelph/Kitchener. Even a shuttle bus wouldn't have too much trouble connecting to the airport terminals via Highway 27, Belfield, and Highway 409.

Makes sense to me.

To the extent that Etobicoke North has to be replaced because of other factors...yes. But neither location is a particularly great spot for a GO train and EN is, marginally, closer to residential users than Woodbine is.

View attachment 166051

2 things about the argument for a Woodbine station have always bothered me

1. the notion that keeps getting thrown out that with the expansion of Woodbine into a full on casino/entertainment venue there will be lots of new riders using the train to get there. Woodbine is (and every plan I have seen for it is) a north facing building with the entertainment being north of the track.....the tracks, however, are south of the track and the stables and the practice/exercise track.......not sure how attractive it will be for people going for a night at the casino to take the train out there with that layout;
2. the "it is easier to connect to the airport" than Etobicoke North is. While this is true it is also true of Malton, and while it has always been true of Malton it is not something we have ever bothered doing.

So, yes, if EN has to be replaced Woodbine makes some sense....but I would just be a bit cautious on the expectations side....it is always going to be a fairly remote, hard to get to, lightly used station (IMO).

Also EN is a good station for people driving on the 401 to get on the GO rather than continue their journey downtown.

It's more interesting than that - Etobicoke North was never intended to be replaced as per the EAs, and I've never seen a plan for it in any of the internal documentation I've been given access to. This seems to be quite a recent development, perhaps as a result of the awarding of the tender for the tunnel under the 401.

That said - I too agree that a station at 27 makes a lot of sense for a bunch of different reasons. Perhaps, even as a way to institute a better connection with the UPX trains to and from Pearson for passengers from the west.

I also agree replacing EN with Woodbine makes sense, my only concern is it is now reducing the distance to, and duplicating the primary purpose of Malton. At this point, why not close Malton as well, and shift Woodbine west towards the 427?

• Additional time benefit for upstream riders
• Potential integration with a future 427 North BRT stop
• Still a potential connection with the Finch West LRT and UPX
• Local buses can access via ramps from 27 to Entrance Road
• Drivers can still access via the 409 ramps from Atwell Dr

 

[TOareaFan]

I also agree replacing EN with Woodbine makes sense, my only concern is it is now reducing the distance to, and duplicating the primary purpose of Malton. At this point, why not close Malton as well, and shift Woodbine west towards the 427?

• Additional time benefit for upstream riders
• Potential integration with a future 427 North BRT stop
• Still a potential connection with the Finch West LRT and UPX
• Drivers can still access via the 409 ramps from Atwell Dr

The, current, primary purpose of Malton is to serve the people who live there......someone may have actual ridership numbers but from observation I would think that Malton gets far more (multiple times more) ridership than Etobicoke North.

We should not be so hasty to close Malton just because we have never tapped into it's potential to link to the airport....especially now that it is adjacent to GTAA property and is mere months away from, finally, having regular buses going through it's parking lot on the way to the airport.

 

[robmausser]

running a train, say, once an hour at 8 or 9 at night on a weeknight would disturb the tunnel digging? running a train once an hour on a Sunday needs more tracks than they use now during peak times?

mmm.?

I think the reason they don't run evening and weekend trains is because they have not been allowed to by the owner of the tracks.

That is not what I was told. Ive been told that Metrolinx has put all service expansions on hold until the current projects are complete. Including 401 tunnel, Barrie and Stouffville track doubling.

Like has been mentioned by multiple people, they dont need to use the CN track to get to Bramalea.

 

[robmausser]

I also agree replacing EN with Woodbine makes sense, my only concern is it is now reducing the distance to, and duplicating the primary purpose of Malton. At this point, why not close Malton as well, and shift Woodbine west towards the 427?

• Additional time benefit for upstream riders
• Potential integration with a future 427 North BRT stop
• Still a potential connection with the Finch West LRT and UPX
• Local buses can access via ramps from 27 to Entrance Road
• Drivers can still access via the 409 ramps from Atwell Dr

Howabout we stop closing stations, when Toronto needs to be in a service expansion, not reduction.

We need to be buying rolling stock that can accelerate quickly to mitigate the losses by stopping at many stations, and express level service to bypass these stations.

Oh wait, thats what we are doing. We need to stop thinking of our station placement as based on these slow hulking green diesel beasts we currently have, thats not what is going to be servicing these stations when built.

We are building a regional rail service, our minds are still stuck in commuter mode.

Paris RER, Overground etc etc all have stations twice as close as this.

 

[ShonTron]

I also agree replacing EN with Woodbine makes sense, my only concern is it is now reducing the distance to, and duplicating the primary purpose of Malton. At this point, why not close Malton as well, and shift Woodbine west towards the 427?

• Additional time benefit for upstream riders
• Potential integration with a future 427 North BRT stop
• Still a potential connection with the Finch West LRT and UPX
• Local buses can access via ramps from 27 to Entrance Road
• Drivers can still access via the 409 ramps from Atwell Dr

I'd disagree about closing Malton even with a stop at Woodbine. Malton has several important links (Airport Road, Derry Road) and is currently served by Miway and Brampton Transit. Malton can accommodate further expansion easily (it has three tracks with platform access) and serves the local area, plus some parts of Brampton. Malton can be improved -- it's not easily accessible to the street and an awkward placement to the Derry/Airport intersection -- but's a very useful stop.

 

[TOareaFan]

Like has been mentioned by multiple people, they dont need to use the CN track to get to Bramalea.

really? I saw multiple people refuting that notion....including this one with and excellent image in support

https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...thread-including-extensions.4952/post-1400980

 

[ssiguy2]

A GO station at Woodbine should have been a top priority from the beginning.

Not only will it serve Woodbine but more importantly the huge Humber area that has no access to rapid transit now. Not only is it home to thousands but also a major hospital and Humber college. If they had a lick of sense ¨which unfortunately they don't they} they would give it a UPX stop. by doing so anyone coming in from VIA or GO Kitchener would be able to transfer there to get to Pearson. It is also a logical termination for an extended Finch LRT as it would offer seamless connections between York U and GO.

 

[gweed123]

With regards to Woodbine, a few points:

1) Having a station there certainly increases the land value of the south end of the Woodbine Racetrack property. I could see it being an ideal place for a hotel. It's close to the race track and casino, and would have easy access to the airport (especially if this becomes a UPX stop), and easy access to downtown. That would certainly have more land value for the owners than a practice track.

2) While the main building is too far of a walk away, there's nothing stopping Woodbine from starting up a shuttle bus service from the front doors to the station. Parking there is free, so it's not like they'd be losing any parking revenue. If anything, they would probably wind up making more money on drinks because people could go there for a night out and not have to worry about driving.

3) The potential transit connections here are obviously superior. As was mentioned, it would be easy access for GO bus services (easier than Bramalea even), and lies on a natural extension path of the Finch West LRT, and is on the Highway 27 Rocket service.

4) It doesn't preclude Malton staying open. It's currently just over 4km between Malton and Bramalea, and it would be just under 4km from Highway 27 to Malton. Also, if this would become a UPX transfer point, most express services from further afield on the Kitchener Line would likely skip Malton anyway, so spacing wouldn't even matter in those cases. The vehicles that would be making all station stops would likely be EMUs, which have better acceleration and can handle closer stop spacing.

 

[TOareaFan]

With regards to Woodbine, a few points:

1) Having a station there certainly increases the land value of the south end of the Woodbine Racetrack property. I could see it being an ideal place for a hotel. It's close to the race track and casino, and would have easy access to the airport (especially if this becomes a UPX stop), and easy access to downtown. That would certainly have more land value for the owners than a practice track.

What I do not know (and not sure if anyone here does) is if having a practice/exercise track is essential to running a "world class" race track or if that even matters to the WEG people. Keep in mind, however, that the south side of the property is home to more than just the practice/exercise tracks....the biggest user of the south side is the stables....and that I do think is essential.

2) While the main building is too far of a walk away, there's nothing stopping Woodbine from starting up a shuttle bus service from the front doors to the station.

This is very true....but would also have been very possible from Etobicoke North and/or Malton.

4) It doesn't preclude Malton staying open. It's currently just over 4km between Malton and Bramalea, and it would be just under 4km from Highway 27 to Malton. Also, if this would become a UPX transfer point, most express services from further afield on the Kitchener Line would likely skip Malton anyway, so spacing wouldn't even matter in those cases. The vehicles that would be making all station stops would likely be EMUs, which have better acceleration and can handle closer stop spacing.

True.

Like I said, I never supported a woodbine stop before. I just never saw enough benefit to what was already there at EN.....but now that we find out (for the first time, I believe) that EN has to close....it makes sense....I just think people are expecting too much from it.

 

[M II A II R II K]

The station could feature horses that look animated as the train is pulling in and out.

 

[steveintoronto]

An interesting article for a few reasons. The current Etobicoke North station is clearly temporary. There's no permanent station building (the old one, on the south side of the tracks, is now abandoned), and there's only one platform. That keeps the peak hour trains and hourly midday service out of the way of UPX, which uses the two south tracks. The widened 401 tunnel with four or five tracks is incompatible with the station there. Once the tunnel work is done and Metrolinx ready to put the tracks in, Etobicoke North would have to close. Etobicoke North is poorly situated anyway.

Woodbine Station offers several advantages. It's obvious that Woodbine Racetrack has too much land now, as horse racing has declined. It's now focused on other gaming. That's a lot of land for a parking lot, a bus loop, as well as other development along with continued horse racing. (The practice track would either have to be moved, or they'd use the main track.) The transit links are better - GO's buses to Woodbridge and Bolton would make a better connection to trains, it'd be within reach for YRT, and if UPX stopped at Woodbine, that would be great for rail passengers from Brampton/Guelph/Kitchener. Even a shuttle bus wouldn't have too much trouble connecting to the airport terminals via Highway 27, Belfield, and Highway 409.

Makes sense to me.

And a (GO? UPX?) shuttle from there to Pearson using the UPX tracks and gaping 15 min headways. IIRC, Pearson UPX is still only using the one platform of the two available. The 'shuttle' could be situated in a centre bay platform near Woodbine with an underground passageway so that later, or in emergency, UPX trains could could use the side platforms. The shuttle would be a redundant need though for north bound UPX airport passengers, but perfect for southbound Georgetown Corridor passengers, and those off of buses, GO to K/W and LRT at Woodbine. A UPX center platform with a bay at the northern end feeding into a wye to both up and down tracks could solve a lot of problems that are being talked of theoretically for 'The Pearson Hub'.