GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[M II A II R II K]

Perhaps the Finch LRT should have an interchange at Woodbine, and then continue to the Airport

 

[crs1026]

If the Woodbine location adds clientele, great.... but if it does nothing other than serve the current EN clientele - who seem to be mostly auto users - then that’s at least status quo.
Last time I was in Baltimore, we rode the LRT on the day of the Preakness. There were plenty of well dressed customers taking the LRT to the racetrack. A bit incongruous for some of the environs! Personally I am dubious about the racetrack creating much ridership, but Woodbine would benefit many especially if development happens. GO to Woodbine and bus from there to Humber College would be a great improvement over Finch LRT or the Rocket from Kipling Station. As noted, Woodbine would be a good hub for feeder bus service up Hiways 27 and 50.
The Airport shuttle idea is not a bad one. If Princeton can have a shuttle to the NEC, this might actually be attractive to both VIA and GO. The Malton stop is not well used by VIA passengers, whereas with the right transit connections it might appeal to westenders as an alternative to Union.... until a Pearson hub emerges.

- Paul

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

How about poor central Mississauga, with its piddly peak hour service? At least you'll be able to catch a connecting bus to Bramalea.


Metrolinx owns (IIRC) a tail track on the south side to Bramalea (platform 4?). Doesn't conflict with the mainline freight, so that's probably what's allowing them to electrify to that point.

But it begs the question of why they aren't bothering to do the same at Aldershot. Is the gap between the tail track there and Burlington West junction really that much of a barrier?

I agree with this but Metrolinx keeps procrastinating with CP Rail.

 

[smallspy]

IIRC, Pearson UPX is still only using the one platform of the two available.

UPX trains use both platforms at Pearson. The layover for each train is about 18 minutes, so there is a 3 minute period where both tracks are occupied simultaneously.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[steveintoronto]

UPX trains use both platforms at Pearson. The layover for each train is about 18 minutes, so there is a 3 minute period where both tracks are occupied simultaneously.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

I wondered on that, have only ever used it to Pearson when they offered free rides when it first opened. At that time they were just using the northern side. That's a long layover, but I guess they get it there rather than at Union. Even that three minute overlap, with time for signals to clear and to get past the cross-over allows for a shuttle from a platform adjacent to Woodbine Racetrack lots of time (ten minutes) to enter and leave.

The biggest problem for UPX would be business-wise: It would debase the need to use the present UPX service for a sizable minority of users. It would also limit the need for further expansion of UPX service as RER through Woodbine would circumvent demand if a shuttle was available, along with GO and local buses using Woodbine. GTAA might also lose a good part of their raison d'être of the 'Pearson Hub'.

It might also mean that since UPX from Union remains at a 15 min headway, those tracks/pathings could be shared with RER, and only two tracks plus passing/berthing at some stations on the present GO tracks (even though they're all shared, they have predominant pathings) need be electrified. Whether that would be a significant cost savings or not is another question, possibly a false saving in the big picture.

The more I think about it, the more a shuttle to Woodbine using the Airport Spurs would make a lot of sense. A much lesser alternative would be to extend the present 'People Mover' to Woodbine, but it would pale in comparison for capacity and flexibility of options. It would, however, remain unmanned.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

There is a 4th track at Bramalea (platform currently under construction) but it doesn’t run all the way from the actual junction with CN just east of the station. Currently 2 Metrolinx tracks and 2 CN tracks merge into 3 tracks all technically belonging to CN. Then a separate 4th track comes out of that to Platform 4 at the actual station.

If Metrolinx could extend that 4th track from the station to the junction and through, joining to their true track east of the wye, then one could see less opposition from CN to more service as far as Bramalea in the short-medium term.

Of course the proposed bypass would be the best solution if it moves forward

View attachment 166005View attachment 166006View attachment 166007

This is going to cost so much money. Where is the cost comparison between adding 3 tracks and doing this bypass?

 

[TOareaFan]

I agree with this but Metrolinx keeps procrastinating with CP Rail.

Honest question, are they procrastinating or realizing that, perhaps, there is no deal to be made?

 

[Allandale25]

This is going to cost so much money. Where is the cost comparison between adding 3 tracks and doing this bypass?

That's probably what this is meant to look at (see the last box). Posted this back when it was made public in September.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Honest question, are they procrastinating or realizing that, perhaps, there is no deal to be made?

I think if they Humber flyunder is proposed formally, there would be. They just want to lay one track from Meadowvale to the USRC and that's just not enough. They need to bite the bullet, considering this is the busiest non lakeshore line.
@smallspy @steveintoronto

That's probably what this is meant to look at (see the last box). Posted this back when it was made public in September.

View attachment 166141

That's interesting. I think something needs to be done even with the tunnel. There is space in the corridor for this.

 

[JasonParis]

Malton can accommodate further expansion easily (it has three tracks with platform access) and serves the local area, plus some parts of Brampton. Malton can be improved -- it's not easily accessible to the street and an awkward placement to the Derry/Airport intersection -- but's a very useful stop.

Also, the International Centre is basically Mississauga's convention centre, and depening on the event can generate large crowds, some of whom actually take transit.

 

[TOareaFan]

Also, the International Centre is basically Mississauga's convention centre, and depening on the event can generate large crowds, some of whom actually take transit.

And is now part of the airport (being owned by GTAA)....I have a sneaking suspicion that the whole "Union West" thing will find itself being located at a combined International Centre/Malton GO station.....with an extension/replacement/upgrading of the people mover to connect it to T1 and T3

 

[robmausser]

This is going to cost so much money. Where is the cost comparison between adding 3 tracks and doing this bypass?

Its not an Apples to Apples comparison.

The bypass offers so much more than adding another track in the Georgetown corridor.

 

[crs1026]

I think if they Humber flyunder is proposed formally, there would be. They just want to lay one track from Meadowvale to the USRC and that's just not enough. They need to bite the bullet, considering this is the busiest non lakeshore line.
@smallspy @steveintoronto

That's interesting. I think something needs to be done even with the tunnel. There is space in the corridor for this.

Conversation is wandering from Halton to Milton - two different issues here.

If you wonder about the Milton line, check Google Maps and measure the distance between level crossings. Then try to imagine CP having to hold a 10,000 foot freight train somewhere -anywhere - to clear a GO train....even for only 7-10 minutes, imagine the impact on traffic in Mississauga. Add up the cost of the grade separations and bridges over creeks that would be needed to mitigate that. Basically, CP needs both existing tracks for their freight operations, and ML needs two new tracks for GO. Lots of grade separation. Presumably a flyover somewhere, too. Point being, it is a huge price tag and is not amenable to an incremental, 10 ish year construction program. Once RER, oops, Rapid Rail is built, there may be money. But trying to build that line today would suck all the cash out of the GO Expansion. It’s one or the other.

As for the Halton: here are some facts. CN 2017 net earnings per share: $C 7.24.... averaged on a per route mile basis (19,600 route miles), the 15 miles between Bramalea and Silver amount to about C 0.55 cents net income per share. CN’s capital base is about 779.2 million shares.
On a per route mile averaged basis, CN’s market cap (total about C$80B) for those 15 miles is about $C 66 million.

How much net income would it take for CN shareholders to look favourably on allowing GO on that corridor? A cent per share per year? Probably more like a nickle per share.....that’s $40Mil per year.... plus cost.

The longer this stalemate with CN goes on, the more I wonder if we should in fact be discussing how one might drive a new rail line through Peel and Halton Regions. Where would we route it? What is in the way that would have to be expropriated or moved? What would it cost? It may not be a fantasy exercise....it likely bounds what CN is asking.

Now rinse and repeat the financials for the 25 miles between Milton and West Toronto. CP won’t come cheap, either.

- Paul

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Conversation is wandering from Halton to Milton - two different issues here.

If you wonder about the Milton line, check Google Maps and measure the distance between level crossings. Then try to imagine CP having to hold a 10,000 foot freight train somewhere -anywhere - to clear a GO train....even for only 7-10 minutes, imagine the impact on traffic in Mississauga. Add up the cost of the grade separations and bridges over creeks that would be needed to mitigate that. Basically, CP needs both existing tracks for their freight operations, and ML needs two new tracks for GO. Lots of grade separation. Presumably a flyover somewhere, too. Point being, it is a huge price tag and is not amenable to an incremental, 10 ish year construction program. Once RER, oops, Rapid Rail is built, there may be money. But trying to build that line today would suck all the cash out of the GO Expansion. It’s one or the other.

As for the Halton: here are some facts. CN 2017 net earnings per share: $C 7.24.... averaged on a per route mile basis (19,600 route miles), the 15 miles between Bramalea and Silver amount to about C 0.55 cents net income per share. CN’s capital base is about 779.2 million shares.
On a per route mile averaged basis, CN’s market cap (total about C$80B) for those 15 miles is about $C 66 million.

How much net income would it take for CN shareholders to look favourably on allowing GO on that corridor? A cent per share per year? Probably more like a nickle per share.....that’s $40Mil per year.... plus cost.

The longer this stalemate with CN goes on, the more I wonder if we should in fact be discussing how one might drive a new rail line through Peel and Halton Regions. Where would we route it? What is in the way that would have to be expropriated or moved? What would it cost? It may not be a fantasy exercise....it likely bounds what CN is asking.

Now rinse and repeat the financials for the 25 miles between Milton and West Toronto. CP won’t come cheap, either.

- Paul

Forgot to tag you! Thank You for the info. According to the initial business case, a credit river grade separations is needed over the CPR Halton sub, double track between Kitchener and Georgetown, and 2 new tracks from Mount Pleasant to Georgetown. I do agree, and I think that is what CN is looking for to happen. But that is costly. For Milton, why not nust built the one extra track for now and go from Meadowvale to Union until more money is available?

Its not an Apples to Apples comparison.

The bypass offers so much more than adding another track in the Georgetown corridor.

Fair but the bypass delays everything to 2024. Tracks are much faster.

 

[crs1026]

For Milton, why not njust built the one extra track for now and go from Meadowvale to Union until more money is available?

The track is a lesser cost. It’s the cost of new bridges and grade separation that is a single up feont cost. Those have to be built with the additional trackage roughed in, even if the second track isn’t laid immediately. The Weston line is a good example of that. Apart from the 401 tunnel, the amount being spent to add the fourth track is not that great, because all the bridges and interlockings were built for four tracks during the GTS project.

Besides, adding only one track to the Milton line would not enable frequent two way service. Similar to Barrie and Unionville, there might be a way to offer a minimal hourly 2 way service with only one track and some passing sidings...but a full two way service is what’s ultimately desired.

- Paul