Planned Sprawl in the GTA

[innsertnamehere]

will automobile dependence be as bad environmentally as people make it out to be in the future with the coming of electric vehicles? Already today if you drive a Tesla powered off of Ontario's electrical grid, it would have a very, very small environmental footprint. Probably lower than a bus would.

There will always be the health concerns of driving and how it encourages personal inactivity, and of course the negative urban environments it creates, but is driving really going to be "unsustainable" in the future? I feel that part of the anti-car arguement is becoming increasingly irrelevant, at least in the Ontario context with our 90-95% renewable electricity grid.

 

[W. K. Lis]

As long as any vehicle (gasoline, diesel, hybrid, or all electric) drives around (autonomous or single-occupant), there will continue to be grid-lock or traffic jams.

 

[DTC]

EV are kinda better that fossil fuelled cars but they are still quite bad for the environment, not only in terms of the type of energy on the grid, but also due to the lithium, etc mining needed to create the batteries, and that has a huge impact in the environment.

In 2010 apparently there were 1 billion cars worldwide, imagine the mining needed to convert those cars into electric ones.

And as you said, urbanistically cars are not good for a city, urban sprawl, sedentarism, space consumption, etc.

 

[innsertnamehere]

the vast majority of steel in cars gets recycled - and has been for a century now.

At the end of the day those cars are likely getting their occupants places faster and more efficiently than public transit ever could - even with the traffic. They are just that efficient.

Perhaps the focus should shift away from the environmental problems cars cause and move more towards how to minimize their urban environment impacts? I.e. the shift recently to more multi-modal and pedestrian friendly road designs, lower parking minimums for retail and commercial projects, encouragement of the shielding and/or undergrounding of parking, etc. It is possible to create urban environments that allow for large volumes of vehicles to access it, it's just a much more difficult and expensive proposition.

It really is a shame that Canada / the US has such large vehicle sizes too, Europe's smaller sizes allow for much smaller parking areas. You probably only need 60-70% of the space in europe as you would in Canada to store the same amount of vehicles.

 

[44 North]

It really is a shame that Canada / the US has such large vehicle sizes too, Europe's smaller sizes allow for much smaller parking areas. You probably only need 60-70% of the space in europe as you would in Canada to store the same amount of vehicles.

The transition to larger vehicles will happen in Europe and Asia too. It's happening everywhere, I think. Sure they might get more variety when it comes to smaller cars, but it seems everything is getting bigger. Look at the Toyota Hilux/Tacoma, renowned worldwide as the go-to truck. Just keeps getting bigger and taller, and that's worldwide. I'd like to buy a pickup, but even the smallest available (Nissan Frontier) is still too big. You can still navigate it into TO's tight laneways with some ease, but certainly not as easily as the trucks on offer a decade ago. Ford Ranger will be coming back, but that too will be much bigger than its predecessor.

The last opportunity for a compact pickup in N.Am was the shortlived Suburu Baja (which was pretty awesome). I'm sure there'll be some explanation that the public wants bigger cars/trucks, or that entertainment/safety are why things have gotten so massive. But I'm not buying it, something's afoot behind closed doors.

 

[jje1000]

Cars just need to be smaller or better utilized, period.

Large, single-occupancy vehicles are the bane of any roadway.

 

[DTC]

The transition to larger vehicles will happen in Europe and Asia too. It's happening everywhere, I think. Sure they might get more variety when it comes to smaller cars, but it seems everything is getting bigger. Look at the Toyota Hilux/Tacoma, renowned worldwide as the go-to truck. Just keeps getting bigger and taller, and that's worldwide. I'd like to buy a pickup, but even the smallest available (Nissan Frontier) is still too big. You can still navigate it into TO's tight laneways with some ease, but certainly not as easily as the trucks on offer a decade ago. Ford Ranger will be coming back, but that too will be much bigger than its predecessor.

The last opportunity for a compact pickup in N.Am was the shortlived Suburu Baja (which was pretty awesome). I'm sure there'll be some explanation that the public wants bigger cars/trucks, or that entertainment/safety are why things have gotten so massive. But I'm not buying it, something's afoot behind closed doors.

I don't think so. Europe seems to be moving in the right direction.

Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish traffic from center

Madrid City Council is set to approve a new Sustainable Mobility Ordinance that will change the way residents move around public spaces.

The new measures, which will take effect between five and 15 days after the council approves them on Friday, introduce a speed limit of 30km/h on all one-way streets and on single-lane two-way streets.

Under the new rules, motorcycles will not be allowed to park on sidewalks less than three meters wide or near pedestrian crossings. Bicycles will be able to make right turns at red lights where indicated. And new traffic restrictions will go into effect in the downtown area on November 23.

Madrid banning petrol cars from city centre

Big changes await the people of Madrid. On November, 23 a policy called ‘Madrid Central’ will come into force that effectively bans all conventional cars from driving through the city centre. In addition, other measures designed to clear the air over the Spanish capital as well as to make space inside the city centre have been announced.

(...)

But those bans and penalties are not all. With the streets likely to become less car heavy, the Spanish capital also plans to broaden walk ways lining the avenues such as the Gran Via. In smaller one way roads and single lane streets, the city will introduce a 30 km speed limit – in Madrid this affects about 85 percent of all streets and will make the use of any car less attractive. Yet, carmakers have rushed to introduce electric car sharing services which are likely to experience a spike in registrations comes November. The same can be expected for scooter sharing companies such as Coup that have taken to town.

The Madrid Central plan is ambitious and thorough and only matched by similar initiatives in Scandinavia or Amsterdam.

Mayor wants Paris’ historic center to be pedestrian-only

Paris mayor mulls plan to ban cars from historic centre

PARIS – The mayor of Paris wants to pedestrianize the historic center of the French capital, a member of her team says, an area encompassing famous landmarks like the Louvre museum and Notre Dame Cathedral.

The project would see traffic heavily restricted in Paris’s first four arrondissements, or districts, in the center of the city and electric shuttles installed, according to the source close to Mayor Anne Hidalgo.

However, Hidalgo first wants to expand a car-free project known in French as “Paris respire” (“Paris breathes”), which sees certain districts pedestrianized on the first Sunday of each month. She hopes it can be extended to every Sunday by 2019.

Her team member’s comments come days after a court ruled in favor of a car-free promenade by the Seine River following a legal challenge.

(...)

Spain bans petrol cars, fracking, fossil fuel subsidies – aims for 100% renewables

Bans on petrol, diesel cars to intensify in Europe

Petrol, diesel and hybrid cars will be banned in London from 2019

There are a lot of other cities and countries in Europe and the world doing so.

 

[44 North]

I don't think so. Europe seems to be moving in the right direction.

Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish traffic from center



Madrid banning petrol cars from city centre



Mayor wants Paris’ historic center to be pedestrian-only

Paris mayor mulls plan to ban cars from historic centre



Spain bans petrol cars, fracking, fossil fuel subsidies – aims for 100% renewables

Bans on petrol, diesel cars to intensify in Europe

Petrol, diesel and hybrid cars will be banned in London from 2019

There are a lot of other cities and countries in Europe and the world doing so.

But none of those links describe changes in vehicle sizes. Sure removing cars from areas outright is one thing. But I still think vehicles on the whole are getting much bigger. And the transition to EVs may be exacerbating that.

Look at the Model 3, it's four inches wider than a Camry and six inches wider than a Civic. It's huge. Also there appears to be a global trend away from cars with countries the world over embracing crossovers and SUVs. So let's look at the Model X: it's an inch wider than the Q7, 2" wider than X5, and a whopping 4" wider than H3. Now compare all these widths to the vehicles on the road twenty years prior. They're all tanks, and to accommodate them new roads and parking lots will undoubtedly become progressively larger.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I saw a graph that shows how SUV sales have absolutely skyrocketed in NA in the last few years. We went from SUV/car sales being roughly 50/50 in 2014 to SUVs consisting of almost 80% of the market today. There is a reason Ford and GM are killing most of their car models.

Years of cheap gas (which doesn't look like it'll end any time soon) have been a huge cause. They say it's a big reason for increasing pedestrian fatalities as well.

I don't believe the trend is quite as strong in Europe.

What I was talking about is the standard parking space size in NA vs. Europe. European parking spaces are usually about 5x2.5m, while Canadian spaces are more typically 6x2.75 (though both vary a bit), with a typical drive aisle being 6m wide in Canada and 5m in Europe.

Those differences are huge - a standard double loaded aisle of parking in europe needs 18.75sm per car, while in Canada it needs 24.75sm.. thats 25% less space per spot.

 

[DTC]

But none of those links describe changes in vehicle sizes. Sure removing cars from areas outright is one thing. But I still think vehicles on the whole are getting much bigger. And the transition to EVs may be exacerbating that.

Look at the Model 3, it's four inches wider than a Camry and six inches wider than a Civic. It's huge. Also there appears to be a global trend away from cars with countries the world over embracing crossovers and SUVs. So let's look at the Model X: it's an inch wider than the Q7, 2" wider than X5, and a whopping 4" wider than H3. Now compare all these widths to the vehicles on the road twenty years prior. They're all tanks, and to accommodate them new roads and parking lots will undoubtedly become progressively larger.

Well yeah in general vehicles are getting bigger at this moment of time, very probably because of cheap gas. Maybe it's also happening in Europe but it has to be then in the very very rural part of Europe because in cities you don't get that feeling.

 

[lenaitch]

I think a lot of it might have to do with two factors. Smaller vehicles are more culturally ingrained in Europe due to historically high fuel costs, and the fact that they had to shoehorn them into centuries old urban footprint. In North America, even the old urban footprint is much newer with the exception of old Quebec City and possibly Montreal. They also don't have the distances to deal with and the lack of public transportation to get there. I have had UK acquaintances marvel at the distances we drive to work or to a cottage for a couple of days; that's the distance they would go on a big vacation trip.
I remember when I was in the UK and remarking about the size or vehicles and houses and the answer was that they just 'lead smaller lives' and I imagine mainland Europe is much the same.

Vehicle sizes in North America seem to be more cyclic in reflection of the cost of fuel and state of the economy and manufacturers will built what the market wants. Keep in mind that the Canadian market is not large enough to have any impact on product determination.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Canada occasionally has cars in it's market that aren't sold in the US - though they are rare. The latest example I can think of is the Chevy Orlando - it was never sold stateside. Not really a big seller here either.. but it was sold here. The Kia Rondo was sold in Canada for many model years more than it was sold in the US as well. I believe US production stopped in 2010, Canada in 2017.. There was a model refresh in that time, too.

While there is typically a lot of similarities in model lineups, the best sellers are vastly different between the two countries. Canada has always had more of a preference for smaller vehicles in general - in the US, the Toyota Camry has long been the best selling car (mid-size), while Canada's best seller is the Honda Civic, a compact car. I'd imagine it's largely to do with higher fuel costs - $1.10 a litre is equivalent to $3.40 a gallon USD - that's on par with California, by far the most expensive US state for gas. Most of the US is closer to $2.50 a gallon.

 

[44 North]

While there is typically a lot of similarities in model lineups, the best sellers are vastly different between the two countries. Canada has always had more of a preference for smaller vehicles in general - in the US, the Toyota Camry has long been the best selling car (mid-size), while Canada's best seller is the Honda Civic, a compact car. I'd imagine it's largely to do with higher fuel costs - $1.10 a litre is equivalent to $3.40 a gallon USD - that's on par with California, by far the most expensive US state for gas. Most of the US is closer to $2.50 a gallon.

Higher fuel costs and lower per capita GPD would be likely explanations for the Can/US difference in top vehicle, but I wouldn't call the Camry and Civic vastly different. They're pretty similar.

And how it relates to vehicle sizes, look at how those two changed over the years. The Camry used to be compact, in the 80s coming in at 66.5" wide and weighing an avg of 2,300lbs. Today it's "midsize" coming in at 72.4" and weighing almost 3,400lbs. Civic was subcompact with 2nd gen at 62.5" and an avg 1,600lbs, now it's a larger "compact" with a girth of 70.8" and a weight of over 3,000lbs for the hatchback model. That's almost a foot of width to its waistline and roughly a 200% increase in mass! Three thousand pounds for a supposed compact, c'mon. Talk about battle of the bulge.

Engines have gotten super efficient, but fuel economy has remained relatively static on account of the added weights. No question you look at new builds; road widths and parking sf have increased to handle these monsters of the roads. And I'd bet that's worldwide. Also wouldn't rule out increased pedestrian fatalities because of this. Have the supposed 'exact same' vehicle - yet a foot wider and weighing twice as much - it's naturally harder to navigate and clearly has more momentum. Add in distractions like bigger entertainment screens and smartphones, that's why more pedestrians are dying, not cheaper gas.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Parking stall sizes have actually trended downward over the last decade slightly, not upward. A lot of municipalities have reviewed parking standards to see if they can reduce sizes.

Road design includes modern shoulders on new highways, something you didn't always see on older highways - but the lane widths are the same as they were in the 1960's. toronto has actually been on a big push to reduce lane widths where possible.

Cars have certainly gotten bigger over time, no denying that. The civic today is more or less the same size as the accord was in the early 2000's.

No the Camry and the Civic aren't hugely different, but there is a significant enough difference. The sales difference between the two countries is stark too, Toyota sells way fewer camrys up here.

I should also say that in the US the real best selling car is the F-150, while in Canada it's the Civic (albeit the F-150 is close behind).

 

[W. K. Lis]

Minneapolis Moves to Eliminate Mandatory Parking

From link.

The Minneapolis City Council has approved a bold plan that would dramatically increase walkability and other hallmarks of urban living by eliminating mandatory parking that has encouraged car ownership for years.

As part of a larger rezoning that will erase decades of racially discriminatory housing policy, the plan will eliminate off-street parking minimums throughout the city — a reform that would make Minneapolis the third major U.S. city to eliminate such requirements, which are a hidden subsidy for drivers.

A goal of the so-called Minneapolis 2040 plan [PDF] is housing and transportation policy that reduces emissions by 80 percent by 2050. To achieve that, the city hopes to reduce the number of miles driven locally 40 percent.

“That drives us to making every investment that we can on the transportation side to reduce vehicle miles traveled,” Robin Hutcheson, the city’s director of Public Works, told Streetsblog. “We want to be able to develop the city and have developers be successful without having to overbuild on parking, which has happened historically in all cities.“

The elimination of mandatory minimum parking follows similar efforts in Buffalo and Hartford, Conn. The Minneapolis plan also calls for discouraging the construction of surface parking lots, and prohibits new gas stations or drive-throughs citywide.

Auto-oriented land uses — such as auto repair shops — will no longer be allowed near Metro stations.

Most of the discussion of the plan has focused on a rezoning that will allow triplex apartments in every neighborhood — even those formerly zoned only for single family houses, a zoning that exacerbated segregation and skewed the housing market. And there’ll be increased density and even stricter parking restrictions near transit stations.

The Minneapolis effort demonstrates that the issues of housing prices and parking are inexorably linked — and must be addressed together if cities want to be more walkable, more integrated and more affordable. Some studies have shown that mandatory parking spaces can add as much as 20 percent to the cost of an apartment.

“Parking minimums and parking ramps harm our efforts at achieving the elimination of racial disparities, addressing climate change and providing affordable housing,” Janne Flisrand, a volunteer and co-founder of the advocacy group Neighbors for More Neighbors, told Streetsblog.

The comprehensive plan doesn’t make the zoning change — eliminating parking minimums — official. But the law requires that the city’s zoning code match the comprehensive plan. Flisrand is confident that City Council will follow through on the zoning changes. The process of changing the zoning laws to align with the plan will take place over the coming year.

“We envision a future where we all find affordable and secure homes in the neighborhood where we choose,” Flisrand said.