Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[steveintoronto]

Random question, and to admit this isn't exactly my area of expertise, but is there any possibility for a semi-electrified system? What I'm thinking is the track area in and immediately surrounding stations is electrified by overhead wires, but between stations the trains run on battery power.

Absolutely. CRRC (one of their divisions) has one running in a Chinese city, the name of which eludes me. What got my curiosity going watching the vid on (YouTube?) was how slowly the system ran. The LRTs themselves *looked* 'state of the art' in design, as did the stations, but the speed was pedantic at best. And just not competitive. Slower than a bicycle!

Might as well electrify everywhere and allow the catenary to be the feed system. Plus, the benefits of regeneration can be spread out over the route, not just applied to recharging the train doing the braking.

Absolutely agreed. By the time you've finished 'putting up the fence posts and supplied each one with electricity' you 'might as well erect a continuous wire with only a few supplies' for your 'continuous electric fence'.

My only comment to take that further is the line voltage being used. @KevinT and I had a discussion on this, by accident, as I'd mistakenly presumed all of Metrolinx' LRT were running on 1500 VDC, as opposed to the more common in NorthAm 750 VDC. Ottawa is running their system 1500 VDC, much more typical in Europe, for good reason. Line and insertion loss is considerably less than half with 1500 V. The relationship, all things being equal, would be 2:1, but many times, and this is one, resistive losses compound when heat accumulates, and so the relationship becomes more geometric.

Frankly, I suspect with the new advanced conventional xfrmrs, let alone solid state ones (no magnetic transfer, it's all switching) that if many cities had to revisit catenary voltage, they'd go AC. Which is why a number of systems (Karlsruhe being the best known) run their trams on DB mainlines as well as city and regional lines, all interconnected. And these trams run at HVAC and LVDC. I can guarantee that they accelerate a lot better on AC!

See: https://www.railway-technology.com/projects/karlsruhe/ This is a technical point of discussion, but in theory, it means Toronto LRT services could be run to the airport over electrified UPX lines and directly onto/off of LRT lines. Voltage switching is instantaneous and automatic. The above link will explain it, and I'll further explain it if need be.

To tie all of this back to UPX, there's a hell of a lot more that corridor could be doing! Fortunately, Metrolinx had the where-with-all to insist the LRTs were standard track gauge.

I'll see if I can find that Chinese LRT vid I watched, albeit it was like watching enamel drying, the vehicles were so slow. It cost someone a fortune for the system...

Addendum: OK, almost got lost at YouTube as there's quite a few Chinese 'leading edge' LRTs.

Bombardier’s Primove Tram, China (Battery Powered Wireless low floor tram)

Note the catenary at each station! To call this "wireless" is a misnomer. "Wireless" actually means inductively activated third rail sections. Here's an example of this (also pioneered in Europe) but it has problems I won't go into here, not least inefficiency of power coupling.

From Wikipedia:
[Line 1 uses AnsaldoBreda's Sirio trams,[3] and is also the first Chinese tram system that uses Ansaldo's catenary-free TramWaveelectrification system.[1] When complete, it will connect central Zhuhai to Zhuhai Railway Station and the Gongbei Port of Entry to Macau.[4] ]

See also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-level_power_supply

 

[KevinT]

You got it

So more of a cow launcher than a cow catcher...

 

[steveintoronto]

So more of a cow launcher than a cow catcher...

Actually, that's a 'Cattle Car' with methane gathering equipment on board that feeds the turbines to 'make it all go'. Bit like a Gerbil Wheel, but using overfed cattle instead.

This Budd's for you!

 

[dowlingm]

Yeah, efficiency leans heavily towards electric.

Acceleration is primarily based on the specs you give the vendor. They scale up/down engine components to fit the operating specs required; and if you lean toward fuel efficiency it'll be less responsive.

If you want an FRA train that can go from 0 to 60 in 3 seconds, be prepared to receive something that burns $100k in fuel per stop and has a pair of jet engines strapped to the top of each car.

The Bombardier JetTrain went from 0 to 31mph on its HEP engine and the rest of the way to 149mph with the same engine as a Q400 (minus the propellers)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/JetTrain

 

[ssiguy2]

The Bombardier Primove system allows the trains to be constantly charged as the trains are electrified by the tracks but only when the train is moving so when the train is not there they can be walked/driven over with no threat of electrocution. There are a few systems in Europe particularly in historic districts where the transit need is there but they do not want the visual pollution of overhead wires. There is also the advantage of not having to worry about wind storms or accidents damaging the wires or polls. Conversely however, I do not believe they have been tested in colder climates and could be very problematic with the issue of snow and ice.

 

[dowlingm]

The Bombardier Primove system allows the trains to be constantly charged as the trains are electrified by the tracks but only when the train is moving so when the train is not there they can be walked/driven over with no threat of electrocution.

This is incorrect - the Alstom APS system uses sections of electrified rail when covered by the tram, but Primove uses magnetic induction which does not use direct electrical contact.

 

[cplchanb]

This is incorrect - the Alstom APS system uses sections of electrified rail when covered by the tram, but Primove uses magnetic induction which does not use direct electrical contact.

so essentially its a life size model train set

 

[robmausser]

Music to the ears of the people who want something done with all the retired RDC's that are lying around ;-)

- Paul

More like 140db of jet engine whine to the ears.

 

[robmausser]

The Bombardier Primove system allows the trains to be constantly charged as the trains are electrified by the tracks but only when the train is moving so when the train is not there they can be walked/driven over with no threat of electrocution. There are a few systems in Europe particularly in historic districts where the transit need is there but they do not want the visual pollution of overhead wires. There is also the advantage of not having to worry about wind storms or accidents damaging the wires or polls. Conversely however, I do not believe they have been tested in colder climates and could be very problematic with the issue of snow and ice.

Actually I was thinking about yesterday whether the Primove system could be adapted onto Bombardiers ART system or Innovia Metro, the linear induction system that they bought from the UDTC. The Scarborough RT system.

Simply because the biggest limitation holding that system back is the fact that you need 2 3rd rails for power, which is expensive and severely limited the speed and agility that was gained from a LIM motor.

With Primove, you remove that problem and have all the advantages of LIM, a super light train that can utilize the entire acceleration profile of the LIM system.

 

[TransitBart]

I used UPX this week at about 1700h from the airport to Union. The train was standing room only. Aisles packed. And the number of people using Bloor is much higher than ever.

Aside: is the actual construction of the tunnel from GO Bloor to Line 2 Dundas West under construction? If it existed, I bet the traffic at Bloor could double.

 

[steveintoronto]

Aside: is the actual construction of the tunnel from GO Bloor to Line 2 Dundas West under construction? If it existed, I bet the traffic at Bloor could double.

The construction per-se isn't, but some sort of activity is ongoing under the north access apron of the Crossways. There's some question as to whether the City or Creccal own the land, indications are that Crossways leased it from the City and/or TTC. Whatever, there are two trailer offices and survey teams on-site, with what appears to be their own access to the chamber below which is to be partly used for the access to the platforms beneath, and then to the Bloor Station. Most everyone is pretty tight-lipped about it. Off the top of my head, that may be due to the massive groundwater pollution found on-site in the pit of project at immediately north of the Crossways, which now has a MoE clean-up order against them to remediate the (ostensibly ruptured buried tank(s) removed) groundwater contamination, estimate "a couple of years" for that to become the case. Bio-hazard pump trucks vacuum the puddles up every few months. It may have migrated...there's kinetic water flow through there, an aquifer, that has complicated many surrounding building projects.
http://www.gordperks.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/High-Parks-Hidden-Waters.pdf

Also note the large grey shed built at the east end of the isthmus between the subway platforms that looks like a storage shed. I can't confirm that it's part of the activity noted, but it did appear when the activity started about six months ago.

 

[WillTo]

Apparently UPX is encouraging people to get an Uber on station street.
I went downstairs to investigate. There are paid parking spots, but not a designated Uber area.

 

[steveintoronto]

^ Why is Metrolinx choosing UBER over TTC?
Weston
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:08
Metrolinx has signed an exclusive deal with UBER for local transit at Weston and Bloor Stations. Weston has 4 TTC bus routes with a few metres of the station, yet the ONLY signage in the station is for UBER. There is no signage or information concerning TTC service. Why not?
https://www.metrolinxengage.com/en/comment/2022

Btw: Metrolinx continue to do a pathetic job of signing the pick-up loop at...wait for it..."2400 Dundas St W". I live three minutes from there, and have had to tell quite a few lost souls where "2400" is. Even checked with the Fresh-Co manager, he doesn't really know. It doesn't show discreetly on Google. 2440 does, but '2400' describes the area, including the parking lot, not an actual door or spot.
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/24...56156c77bbd997!8m2!3d43.6582539!4d-79.4519093

I suggest Metrolinx get their shit together on this! Bad enough with the TTC that there's forever people obviously lost on Dundas with luggage looking for the subway since signage is less than pizz on that stretch.

Remember the now long-gone walkway from the Bloor Station to Dundas that at least had a semblance of pointing travellers in the right direction?

Well guess what: The departure screen is still up and running for that, facing a giant hole in the ground where the path used to be. There's poetry in that...

 

[muller877]

^ Why is Metrolinx choosing UBER over TTC?
Weston
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:08
Metrolinx has signed an exclusive deal with UBER for local transit at Weston and Bloor Stations. Weston has 4 TTC bus routes with a few metres of the station, yet the ONLY signage in the station is for UBER. There is no signage or information concerning TTC service. Why not?
https://www.metrolinxengage.com/en/comment/2022

....

I suggest Metrolinx get their shit together on this! Bad enough with the TTC that there's forever people obviously lost on Dundas with luggage looking for the subway since signage is less than pizz on that stretch.
.

I think there is no love lost either way. The TTC actively avoids direct connections to GO/UP. If you look at Weston there is zero effort to get bus riders into the station. Same as Dundas. Same as almost every other GO station. Compare that to the rest of the GTA and it is very easy to connect.

Any (all?) connections between the TTC and GO/UP have been paid for by Metrolinx and not by the TTC. The worst offender as a great example. The 176 bus. A GO connector bus. And instead of going through the parking lot to drop the riders directly off at the station they make you walk along a street whose sidewalk disappears.

 

[smallspy]

I think there is no love lost either way. The TTC actively avoids direct connections to GO/UP. If you look at Weston there is zero effort to get bus riders into the station. Same as Dundas. Same as almost every other GO station. Compare that to the rest of the GTA and it is very easy to connect.

Considering how many connections are made between GO and TTC, I don't blame the TTC for avoiding delaying the vast majority of their passengers by lengthening the routes.

Frankly, I'd rather the onus be on GO/Metrolinx to make their stations more conducive to walk-in and transfer traffic by moving them closer to busy streets, not further away as is their tendency.

Any (all?) connections between the TTC and GO/UP have been paid for by Metrolinx and not by the TTC. The worst offender as a great example. The 176 bus. A GO connector bus. And instead of going through the parking lot to drop the riders directly off at the station they make you walk along a street whose sidewalk disappears.

Have you seen the parking lot at Mimico GO? Driving a 40 foot transit bus through there would be impossible on most days.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.