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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

The motive is irrelevant. The article stands or falls only on its facts, assumptions and analysis.

I agree with you when analyzing an individual article its good to drill down on the facts, assumptions, and analysis contained within these articles and use that for your own knowledge base. But disagree with you point about motive, as their is a bigger picture to what is being said and many facts, assumptions and analysis are purposely omitted or often not touched upon. This goes for any media outlet not just the Star. They are just heavily "involved" with this topic in their Political agenda. But if you find them neutral as a media you're more than entitled to that opinion, I don't think its even close so its always a valid point
 
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Here's the *QUOTE* again! What is wrong with some of you? This is a quote of an MP, this isn't *Opinion*!

Do you dispute the MP stated this?
[At a regular meeting with Toronto-area MPs, Tory recently stressed that the federal government’s $660 million commitment should not be rolled into the new $20-billion infrastructure fund — a message Scarborough-Agincourt MP Arnold Chan said was communicated to the infrastructure minister and the ministry of finance.

“The Scarborough subway extension is fully funded by three levels of government, and will in no way impact our priorities or take away from Toronto’s priority projects for the second phase of the federal Public Transit Infrastructure Fund,” Tory spokesperson Don Peat said in an email Monday.

But Chan said that fund is being “rolled into” his government’s infrastructure plan and will no longer exist.

“We got that message very clearly, but, you know, keep in mind the previous (Tory) government made a series of announcements without actually putting funding allocations attached to this,” Chan said.

The federal funds were originally promised in writing by former infrastructure minister Denis Lebel under the Harper administration. In the 2013 letter, Lebel said up to $660 million would be set aside under a provincial allocation of the New Building Canada Fund.

On Monday, current Infrastructure Minister Amarjeet Sohi’s office, through spokesperson Kate Monfette, said they remain committed to $660 million in funding and that the New Building Canada Fund has yet to be depleted.]

If an "agenda" is reporting actual quotes and facts, it summates exactly the knee-jerk reaction driving a certain cadre of posters of a defined ilk.
 
Well....no matter how you calculate it, ridership numbers on Sheppard are pathetic compared to any other line, including the present SRT, which actually has a record of being successful in many ways, contrary to being an orphan.

Perhaps it was a bad idea to build Sheppard subway in its present form. I'm not proposing to extend it, at least not in the near term. There are more pressing priorities on the table.

The issue with exaggerated subsidy figures is that they promote ridiculous ideas about closing the existing subway section to save the operating costs. Obviously, that wouldn't recover the construction costs, and if the closure is temporary, the capital repair costs wouldn't go away either.

The argument alone on "farebox return" is contentious in itself. So why not compare the capital costs of the Sheppard subway as well as operating and compare it per-capita to the TTC subway norm?

I don't mind that in principle, but since all other subsidies are being reported based on the operating expenses only, using a different metrics for just one line has a misleading effect.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...-have-are-doomed-by-built-in-flaws-james.html

There are a number of instances of Josh Colle stating the figure "per ride", here's one:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tr...-lrt-reshape-the-sheppard-transit-debate.html

Feel free to correct him and others at Hillcrest who confirm the figure.

amnesiajune did that already; post #12641 in this thread.

Btw: You have your math backwards:
Mmmm....in the context you're attempting to express, it halves it. As a stat, it is as the terms of the ratio state: "per ride" which remains constant no matter how many rides are taken. The total number of "riders" stated:
"it showed gains, from about 10.7 million riders annually to a peak of 15.9 million" is the misnomer. That stat is *rides* per annum, not riders, and thus the 'subsidy' (no matter how it's weighted) is per unit, in this case, per ride.

No, my math is correct. They calculated the subsidy to be $4 per ride (when they added capital repair and public debt charges), and it still did not look bad enough. Then they decided to re-calculate it per daily rider. Since the typical rider makes two trips per day, they multiplied all numbers (total cost, farebox recovery, and the subsidy) by 2. The % of subsidy did not change, but the total amount went from $4 to $8.

For a reader who browses through without digging into details, it is easy to notice the reported $8 Sheppard subway subsidy, compare it to the average TTC subsidy (about 90 cents per ride), and say "OMG, this black hole should be closed". While if we compare apples to apples ($1.25 per ride on Sheppard subway, vs 90 cents average), then it becomes obvious that closing the existing subway is a stupid idea.
 
They calculated the subsidy to be $4 per ride
Who did? And show their methodology.

(Edit: "Of course there are many others riding the TTC for free or enjoying discounts: seniors, students, kids and in a few more years - welfare recipients. Also didn't I read that the effective subsidy on Mel's folly - the Sheppard subway - jumped from $4/ride in 2006 to $10/trip in 2010. Who knows how high it is today. And don't even get me started on the Scarborough subway fiasco."
http://tvo.org/article/current-affa...licy-doesnt-have-to-be-complicated-to-be-good)
...then it becomes obvious that closing the existing subway is a stupid idea.
I've never mentioned closing Sheppard once. I've repeatedly stated that using it as a template for arguing for the SSE is folly. And I'm far from the only one doing so.
 
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Yes certainly but Its also valid to state the obvious agenda the Star and friends have when digging into one of their articles. Not to discount the article but its fair to always question their motive and take their "expertise" for what it is

I'd love to see someone actually address them then.

What exactly in that article is biased? What facts are incorrect?

The kind of reasoning you're providing is exactly what people did when Ford was in office - 'The Star is biased', 'you can't trust them'...but ultimately virtually everything they reported ended up being both true and accurate.
 
I'd love to see someone actually address them then.

What exactly in that article is biased? What facts are incorrect?

The kind of reasoning you're providing is exactly what people did when Ford was in office - 'The Star is biased', 'you can't trust them'...but ultimately virtually everything they reported ended up being both true and accurate.
I've scanned Google to find any kind of reference to buttress his and the other reactionaries' case. There is none. If there is, they should post it.

Steve Munro's blog today:
[...]Ontario is hardly innocent in this whole exercise having meddled for years with Toronto’s transit plans, most notoriously in Scarborough where the whole subway extension debate was twisted to suit political aims. After leading Toronto down the garden path on the SSE, Ontario has capped its project funding leaving Toronto to handle the cost of its ever-changing plans.
[...]
In effect, the province has turned off the tap for Scarborough, and this puts the entire collection of project in danger. Whether they will have second thoughts closer to the June 2018 election is a mystery.
[...]
Scarborough Subway Extension (SSE)

The ongoing comedy which is the “planning” for Scarborough has brought us from a substantial LRT network, to a subway with stations between Kennedy and Sheppard together with, possibly, an LRT line to UTSC, to finally an “express subway” stopping only at the Scarborough Town Centre.

The cost of this scheme continues to rise, and with a 30% detailed design over a year in the future, there is no way to know what the eventual cost might be. Toronto is out on a limb here because both the provincial and federal contributions are capped. There is even a disagreement between Toronto and Queen’s Park about the inflation factor that should be applied to the original “commitment”.

Recently, Toronto Council opted to increase the project cost with a partly underground bus terminal to facilitate property development at Scarborough Town Centre. That cost will be borne by the taxpayers generally across Toronto, not as a “local improvement” chargeable to STC’s owners.
[...]
https://stevemunro.ca/2017/04/28/a-contrary-view-of-ontarios-2017-budget/#more-17489

When the pro-SSE ilk can't counter the message, they shoot the messenger. The Globe, CTV, City, Global, CBC all state similar *quotes* as the Star does, and present the same facts (albeit each in an individual way). Oddly, and not surprisingly, the Sun and Post are next to silent on the issue except for scathing opinion pieces. Huge surprise there. They'd be scathing if the Libs were forthcoming with the funding too.
 
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Here's the *QUOTE* again! What is wrong with some of you? This is a quote of an MP, this isn't *Opinion*!

Do you dispute the MP stated this?
[At a regular meeting with Toronto-area MPs, Tory recently stressed that the federal government’s $660 million commitment should not be rolled into the new $20-billion infrastructure fund — a message Scarborough-Agincourt MP Arnold Chan said was communicated to the infrastructure minister and the ministry of finance.

“The Scarborough subway extension is fully funded by three levels of government, and will in no way impact our priorities or take away from Toronto’s priority projects for the second phase of the federal Public Transit Infrastructure Fund,” Tory spokesperson Don Peat said in an email Monday.

But Chan said that fund is being “rolled into” his government’s infrastructure plan and will no longer exist.

“We got that message very clearly, but, you know, keep in mind the previous (Tory) government made a series of announcements without actually putting funding allocations attached to this,” Chan said.

The federal funds were originally promised in writing by former infrastructure minister Denis Lebel under the Harper administration. In the 2013 letter, Lebel said up to $660 million would be set aside under a provincial allocation of the New Building Canada Fund.

On Monday, current Infrastructure Minister Amarjeet Sohi’s office, through spokesperson Kate Monfette, said they remain committed to $660 million in funding and that the New Building Canada Fund has yet to be depleted.]

If an "agenda" is reporting actual quotes and facts, it summates exactly the knee-jerk reaction driving a certain cadre of posters of a defined ilk.

I never debate the contents of this article? In the bigger picture the Star are using these quotes and selected facts about lack of a real funding plan to promote a rejected transfer laden plan upon Scarborough. So if you cant see the Political bias, slant and agenda directing people on how to vote than thats your choice.

Like I said we are still 14 Billion short just to build short term priorities, and likely 20-30 Billion short soon after. So excessively trying to force an unwanted plan upon Scarborough which cuts corners is wasting all of our time, causing further Political trouble and distracting us from hammering at the real issues.
 
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Who did? And show their methodology.

That's not my job. The poster who brought that $8/rider number first, should indicate the source. If that source describes the methodology, then I will agree to review it.

I've never mentioned closing Sheppard once.

Sure you didn't. But others did (even from within the TTC brass). The misleading subsidy figures, regularly posted on various forums, contribute to the misconcept.

Also didn't I read that the effective subsidy on Mel's folly - the Sheppard subway - jumped from $4/ride in 2006 to $10/trip in 2010.

That doesn't make any sense, easy to see why. 1) Why would it jump 2.5 times in 4 years? The operating conditions did not change much, and the ridership did not get 2.5 times smaller.

2) YUS subway is considered break-even, or even slightly profitable (based on operating expenses only, of course). YUS subway carries 15 times more riders than Sheppard subway, and is 6 times longer. So, YUS is approximately 2.5 times more efficient than Sheppard.

If Sheppard required a subsidy of $10 per ride, than YUS would require about $4 per ride. Then it surely couldn't be break-even, as the average fare is close to $2.

I've repeatedly stated that using it as a template for arguing for the SSE is folly. And I'm far from the only one doing so.

I'm not sure this is a good template, anyway. The two routes aren't very similar.
 
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steveintoronto said:
Who did? And show their methodology.
That's not my job. The poster who brought that $8/rider number first, should indicate the source. If that source describes the methodology, then I will agree to review it.
No comment needed...

In the bigger picture the Star are using these quotes and selected funding facts about lack of a real funding plan to promote a rejected transfer laden plan upon Scarborough. So if you cant see the Political bias, slant and agenda directing people on how to vote than thats your choice.
Well, here's from that bastion of left-wing commie socialist fifth-columnist Toronto Sun, from an author well to the left of...err...Genghis Trump, Sue-Ann Levy: (and lo and behold, actual *quotes* again!)
Pols have botched Scarborough subway

1297833384405_AUTHOR_PHOTO.jpg

By Sue-Ann Levy, Toronto Sun
First posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 07:02 PM EST | Updated: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 07:14 PM EST

The road to (fiscal) hell is paved with good intentions.

Or is it really when it comes to the now $3.3 billion, one-stop Scarborough subway?

In all my years (18 at last count) monitoring the misfortunes of City Hall, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a file botched so badly.

That’s not saying much.

According to a report headed to next week’s meeting of Mayor John Tory’s executive committee, the cost of the one-stop subway has now escalated to more than $3.3 billion — an increase of $187 million — courtesy of a newly-proposed, below-grade bus terminal to “support the development of Scarborough (civic) centre into a dynamic urban mode.” Or so says the report, along with a proposal that the TTC engage in “holistic scoping” before the project gets to the design stage.

Yikes! Who writes this stuff?

This is not to be confused with the last bright idea from Chief Planner Jennifer Keesmaat and Deputy City Manager John Livey to align the subway with McCowan Rd. instead of Brimley Rd. (as suggested by the TTC), which upped the cost by $214 million.

I might also mention that hidden in plain sight in the same report is the fact that Premier Kathleen Wynne’s government has only committed about $1.5 billion to date to the project but the city has factored into the plan a cash infusion of nearly $2 billion from the province.

Still with me?

The bottom line is that the would-be subway — the construction of which will not start until at least 2020 — has been subject to political vote-buying (when Education Minister Mitzie Hunter suddenly discovered subways to win her Scarborough-Guildwood seat in 2013), endless flip-flopping and a clash of political egos.

It’s safe to say the project has been a political football since former mayor Rob Ford first ran and won on the idea in 2010 — a sound idea in theory but without a clearly articulated funding plan.

Of course, as politicians have played their little games, the costs escalated, and escalated. If the residents of Scarborough are lucky, they might see that one subway stop in Scarborough in 2026.

I still remember that night in March 2012 when former TTC chair Karen Stintz — who had been happy to go along with Ford’s subway plan when appointed to head the TTC in early 2011 — was jeered at a meeting at the Scarborough Civic Centre for deciding that LRTs were a much better option for Scarborough.

We really can’t blame Tory for the delays, although one has to seriously question the judgement of continuing with a one-stop subway at the outrageous cost of $3.3 billion (and counting).

I would also question why the city’s planning team has been allowed to engage in its own, shall we say, “holistic scoping” of the project — causing the cost to escalate by $401 million in less than seven months.

Tory spokesman Don Peat said the mayor will be listening to councillors and the community to understand what option they want for the bus terminal.

“Ultimately council will have to decide if it wants to spend $187 million on this stacked bus terminal,” he said.

Peat also suggested the mayor is confident he will get the extra $500 million not yet committed by the province.

“Given the Wynne government’s strong support for the Scarborough subway, we would expect it will match the city’s financial assumptions reflected in the report,” he said.

Maybe so.

But it’s little wonder our subway system is so pathetic compared to other world-class cities.

The fumbling, foot-dragging and flip-flopping make the politicians and bureaucrats who run our city look like bunch of rank amateurs.
http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/28/pols-have-botched-scarborough-subway

[...]
Tory spokesman Don Peat ...also suggested the mayor is confident he will get the extra $500 million not yet committed by the province.

“Given the Wynne government’s strong support for the Scarborough subway, we would expect it will match the city’s financial assumptions reflected in the report,” he said. [...]

Guess what?

Trust no-one, One City, they're all the lying media, putting drugs in our water, and controlling our minds with ultrasonic sound waves.
 
steveintoronto said:

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/28/pols-have-botched-scarborough-subway

Trust no-one, One City, they're all the lying media, putting drugs in our water, and controlling our minds with ultrasonic sound waves.


Shocking! The SUN going after Wynne? They are conservative propaganda media and they really only get involved in this topic to bash the Liberals or any far left leaning City pols. I never said the media was lying. I said they have a Political agenda. Its really not as "tin foil hat" as you're little mud throwing rant implies, its fairly obvious.
 
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The Star is known to be anti-subway though.
Well, they shown to be anti the Scarborough Subway extension. And they've had a few things to say about the Spadina extension into Vaughan. But I don't think anyone would agree that they are historically anti-subway in general. A quick look at what they have published from the 1940s to today confirms that. They have certainly pushed in editorials for some of the subway lines we've built, and even for some unbuilt (so far at least).

When a transit improvement plan balloons from $360 million to pushing $4 billion, it's not surprising that watchdogs will say something - particularly as the cost of the plan has increased from the 2009 LRT proposal, the estimated ridership has decreased significantly.

Even in the 1960s, you could see the Star simultaneously attacking the Queen Subway line, while supporting a line on Bloor-Danforth instead.

The same as now, as The Star has been negative about the Scarborough Subway boondoggle, but is at the same time supportive of the Downtown line. For example, see:

Toronto badly needs a downtown subway relief line: Editorial
Toronto urgently needs a downtown subway relief line and the TTC and Metrolinx are right to study it. But the real challenge is paying for it.
 
When a transit improvement plan balloons from $360 million to pushing $4 billion, it's not surprising that watchdogs will say something - particularly as the cost of the plan has increased from the 2009 LRT proposal, the estimated ridership has decreased significantly.
Except for Royson James, Nobody at the Star is even entertaining the "$360M solution". They seem to be pushing the "$1.8B solution". It's obviously not about cost or service, it's about supporting the David Miller plan.
 
With some radius of the curve, the extra Portlans station may be difficult. I adjusted the Keesmat route (to match hers - I believe.

View attachment 107098
Updated: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1u8nMLrhYu5Z0KFBPHiFWrhzPqKI

I also ditched the Dufferin alignment for an alignment that follows the rail corridor to Pearson, since this line is envisioned to run with SkyTrain and I don't think the Dufferin corridor has the width for SkyTrain. This service would supplement or replace the Union-Pearson Express. Finch West LRT was extended on Hwy-27 to meet with the line. I added the Crosstown East to the map too.

The line has also been renamed to the Pearson-Scarborough Line.

I got to say, I am pretty pleased with how complete RT network of Toronto looks like with both this and the Relief Line. I reposted it in the Transit Fantasy Thread to prevent further thread derailment on here.
 
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Except for Royson James, Nobody at the Star is even entertaining the "$360M solution". They seem to be pushing the "$1.8B solution". It's obviously not about cost or service, it's about supporting the David Miller plan.
Wait, you mean the Star is pushing the grade-separated line to Malvern - the one that's kind of like a subway in itself?

Say it isn't so ....
 

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