Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[amnesiajune]

I don't think it's fair to compare current Line 3 ridership to anything. It has a vehicle shortage and has effectively seen capacity issues since day one. By default it can't attract anyone. With that alone addressed wouldn't it nudge past Line 4 usage virtually overnight?

Probably not. Even before the vehicle shortage, the SRT's ridership was below 40,000.

 

[nfitz]

And where exactly do you get yours?

I was just looking at 2015 in http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Transit_Planning/index.jsp

On one hand, there are issues with the line - but on the other hand, when you look at route ridership, the biggest drops seem to be on Scarborough routes.

Presumably being driven by reduced employment (I haven't looked at the city's jobs reports for a while, but based on the empty properties you see driving around, the employment has been higher in the past). And the shrinking population in many parts of Scarborough - which contrasts with the more central parts of the city.

 

[BurlOak]

The map has been amended with these changes: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1u8nMLrhYu5Z0KFBPHiFWrhzPqKI

I added a new station at East Harbour Centre (Broadview and Lakeshore), making the Broadview and Eastern station (just named Eastern Station now) an important interchange between the Dufferin-King-Scarborough Line and the Don River Line.

I copied the Keesmaat Relief Line routing, fixed with the alignment changes from the new Carlaw routing. Though I still don't know how exactly City Planning intends to send the Relief Line across the Don River at Queen/Eastern.

Dufferin-King-Scarborough might probably be renamed Dufferin-Downtown-Scarborough Line now. And yes, I had originally intended Dufferin to be tunneled. I don't know SkyTrain could fit on Dufferin elevated, but if it is possible I would do that as I have argued for rapid transit on the Dufferin corridor in the past. The Dufferin segment is a leftover from the original map I made where the line was intended as subway. If we were using elevated SkyTrain technology and Dufferin elevated is impossible, I would do as others would and send it north along the rail corridor to Dundas West, Mt. Dennis and probably the airport.

I think the Lower Don Lands/Portlands will be adequately served with this scheme with the Cherry and Broadview Streetcars added to the network. It is just a short ride and transfer to rapid transit stations at Sumach and East Harbour.

With some radius of the curve, the extra Portlans station may be difficult. I adjusted the Keesmat route (to match hers - I believe.

 

[steveintoronto]

Probably not. Even before the vehicle shortage, the SRT's ridership was below 40,000.

[...]
A 2013 report, buried by former mayor Rob Ford, said this: “Notwithstanding criticisms and misinformation over the years, the Scarborough RT has been the single most reliable service operated by the TTC. The service has been very successful at attracting ridership and has been operating over capacity for a decade. For many years, it has carried daily passenger volumes of 40,000 people.” [...]

https://www.pressreader.com/canada/toronto-star/20170327/282080571668321

For a decade or more, express buses were run to supplement the line as it was beyond capacity. It has been purposely neglected and allowed to atrophy for years. Is it any wonder that ridership decreased?

 

[micheal_can]

I was just looking at 2015 in http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Transit_Planning/index.jsp

On one hand, there are issues with the line - but on the other hand, when you look at route ridership, the biggest drops seem to be on Scarborough routes.

Presumably being driven by reduced employment (I haven't looked at the city's jobs reports for a while, but based on the empty properties you see driving around, the employment has been higher in the past). And the shrinking population in many parts of Scarborough - which contrasts with the more central parts of the city.

I would love to see the Subway, RT and Streetcar lines laid onto this map. It might show things that could argue for/against some of the arguments here.

 

[OneCity]

I would love to see the Subway, RT and Streetcar lines laid onto this map. It might show things that could argue for/against some of the arguments here.

Don't get me wrong its useful to project which technology suitable for ridership. I just think part of the problem already is "lines on a map". It really doesn't matter so much what technology is used here, until we get rid of the transfer before SCC and don't force Sheppard residents to transfer to the real Elephant in the room this debate will continue to go down the same path

Surely there are costs associated to address these challenges for alternate technologies or subway routes, but until we make connectivity a focal point for Scarborough for all technologies, the opposing arguments will continue to be lines on a map which just doesn't illustrate what has offended many Scarborough residents. If this never happens, and its already been rejected once by the opposition, the subway will continue to be the only alternative for these residents to choose.

 

[Sakraycore]

Anyways it looks like there's only enough funds for the SSE and nothing leftover for other transit projects. Maybe look into private financing for the DRL if there's a business case to be made for it.

 

[steveintoronto]

Anyways it looks like there's only enough funds for the SSE and nothing leftover for other transit projects. Maybe look into private financing for the DRL if there's a business case to be made for it.

At a regular meeting with Toronto-area MPs, Tory recently stressed that the federal government’s $660 million commitment should not be rolled into the new $20-billion infrastructure fund — a message Scarborough-Agincourt MP Arnold Chan said was communicated to the infrastructure minister and the ministry of finance.

“The Scarborough subway extension is fully funded by three levels of government, and will in no way impact our priorities or take away from Toronto’s priority projects for the second phase of the federal Public Transit Infrastructure Fund,” Tory spokesperson Don Peat said in an email Monday.

But Chan said that fund is being “rolled into” his government’s infrastructure plan and will no longer exist.

“We got that message very clearly, but, you know, keep in mind the previous (Tory) government made a series of announcements without actually putting funding allocations attached to this,” Chan said.

The federal funds were originally promised in writing by former infrastructure minister Denis Lebel under the Harper administration. In the 2013 letter, Lebel said up to $660 million would be set aside under a provincial allocation of the New Building Canada Fund.

On Monday, current Infrastructure Minister Amarjeet Sohi’s office, through spokesperson Kate Monfette, said they remain committed to $660 million in funding and that the New Building Canada Fund has yet to be depleted.

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...-already-gone-over-its-available-funding.html

 

[Sakraycore]

The Star is known to be anti-subway though. So it's still possible that with a couple of cost saving measures it would be enough to finish it.

 

[aquateam]

I was just looking at 2015 in http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Transit_Planning/index.jsp

Thanks for finding actual ridership statistics, I was looking for those. I'm not sure if the TTC actually breaks down operating costs per line though so it's difficult to evaluate the "subsidy per rider per line" statistic. Subway yards contain the fleet between multiple lines, staff is shared, there is large overhead associated with a transit system, so the "subsidy per rider" statistic can be problematic. Capital costs just makes it worse, the Sheppard line is many times more expensive than the Yonge line per kilometer because the Yonge line was constructed by cut and cover in the 1950s, but the Sheppard line was bored in the 2000s, so any newer line is going to be more expensive to construct with construction inflation. On the other hand, since the paint is still (somewhat) fresh on the Sheppard line, it doesn't have the same costs associated with maintaining aging equipment that is past its expected life (e.g. the extensive track replacement being done during weekends on lines 1 and 2 along with the ATC resignalling).

 

[amnesiajune]

The Star is known to be anti-subway though. So it's still possible that with a couple of cost saving measures it would be enough to finish it.

Those aren't mandatory expenses. Some of it is reserve funds ($100-200 million for project changes that occur after construction starts, $115-190 million for construction delays or cost overruns), some is on the wish list but not necessary (platform screen doors), some other parts aren't related to the subway project at all (streetscape improvements).

The only thing that's really necessary on there is the reserve fund, which could be as low as $215 million.

 

[syn]

The Star is known to be anti-subway though. So it's still possible that with a couple of cost saving measures it would be enough to finish it.

Is it possible to address the facts presented in the article?

 

[OneCity]

Is it possible to address the facts presented in the article?

Yes certainly but Its also valid to state the obvious agenda the Star and friends have when digging into one of their articles. Not to discount the article but its fair to always question their motive and take their "expertise" for what it is

 

[OneCity]

Anyways it looks like there's only enough funds for the SSE and nothing leftover for other transit projects. Maybe look into private financing for the DRL if there's a business case to be made for it.

Tory needs the Liberals to back him and by the looks of this budget they gave no indication they were interested in acknowledging Toronto. They may be holding back to election but I always said without the Liberal backing Tory is in hot water and we could see Subways vs. Transfer LRT take 3 only this time with a Conservative Provincial candidate who has a decent chance and will be likely supporting a Municipal candidate on a subway with stops, no Smarttrack and possibly no further LRT.

With this type of neglect for long term funding it doesn't matter what we build In Scarborough here to save 1 billion to SCC. We're still short likely 25-35 Billion plus with DRL full, Sheppard full and much more in the future and no proper plan from either the Feds or much worse from the Province. And because of this Im sure well continue to be forced to eat the narrative that corner cutting with transfer LRT will help make everything better.

The Election could be very ugly as Toronto continues to fight over paltry scraps.

 

[pman]

Yes certainly but Its also valid to state the obvious agenda the Star and friends have when digging into one of their articles. Not to discount the article but its fair to always question the motive.

The motive is irrelevant. The article stands or falls only on its facts, assumptions and analysis.