TTC: Bloor Danforth Line 2 West Extension(s)

[crs1026]

I do not see a subway on Dundas west of the 427 as overkill because it makes operations more efficient, and creates a better mobility hub. I place a high value on that, but maybe that's just me.

If I had time I would go looking for the bus ridership on the incoming Miway lines. I have a suspicion that the ridership coming in along Dundas, Bloor, Burnhamthorpe, Rathburn is immensely larger than the ridership coming to Sherway or on into Etobicoke along the Queensway, even if you count Lakeshore.

If that's true, it argues for finding the best location for all those bus routes to connect to Line 2. Cloverdale is definitely preferable to Kipling or Islington. West side of 427 might be even better, making West Mall the access route instead of further east. That argues for the straight-down-Dundas alignment.

Routing Line 2 south to Sherway does nothing to enhance those routes, and I still question if there is anywhere near enough ridership to justify a higher order line down that way.

Your 'network' is spot on, in my view.

- Paul

 

[gweed123]

My preference would be to extend the subway to Cloverdale, and to use the Obioco Yard (which I believed was recently purchased by either the city or Metrolinx) as the new yard for Line 2. Use Cloverdale as the hub for MiWay local, Dundas BRT, Mississauga BRT, and hopefully a 427 BRT.

Another option of course is to branch the line at Kipling, and have half the trains service Cloverdale, and the other half service Sherway. This would also reduce delays at the terminal station, since in effect there would be 2 of them. The biggest complication with this setup though is how Sherway would be serviced by MiWay, since it would either involve N-S lines servicing both terminals, or a back-track on the TTC for MiWay customers.

 

[Hopkins123]

My preference would be to extend the subway to Cloverdale, and to use the Obioco Yard (which I believed was recently purchased by either the city or Metrolinx) as the new yard for Line 2. Use Cloverdale as the hub for MiWay local, Dundas BRT, Mississauga BRT, and hopefully a 427 BRT.

Another option of course is to branch the line at Kipling, and have half the trains service Cloverdale, and the other half service Sherway. This would also reduce delays at the terminal station, since in effect there would be 2 of them. The biggest complication with this setup though is how Sherway would be serviced by MiWay, since it would either involve N-S lines servicing both terminals, or a back-track on the TTC for MiWay customers.

The bus routes could be arranged in the following way:

Kipling Station - TTC: 30, 44, 45, 46, 123, 188
East Mall (Cloverdale) Station - TTC: 111, 191, 192 MiWay: 1, 3, 20, 26, 76, 101
West Mall (Sherway) Station - TTC: 15, 80, 112, 123 MiWay: 4, 11, 35, 57, 108, 109

The east-west bus MiWay routes are kept at East Mall Stn while the highway dependent routes head south to West Mall Stn.

 

[WislaHD]

@DonValleyRainbow

Would there be two stations on either side of 427 in your map?

I think it ultimately depends on whether Dundas will be BRT or LRT. If it is BRT, then a Line 2 terminal west of 427 is preferable, if it is LRT, then a Line 2 terminal east of 427 is preferable.

 

[BurlOak]

How are you going to do grade when the rail corridor is off the table and a nice condo west of Kipling in the way?

I think what you are saying is that it is nearly impossible to go under the condo if you try to bring the line up to Dundas (yellow). Unless you demolish part of the structure, with parking above it (purple).

Going at grade just south of the condo is the much easier route (green). It is a bit tight, and the tracks would have to be stacked. There is 250m beyond the station so one track would ascend and the other descend (say at 1.25%), and that provides the 6m difference in track elevation to do it. It would sort of be a +/-150m long open sided box culvert (the side facing the condo is closed, and the side facing south is partly open to avoid complexities of tunnel related safety requirements) running east-west, with retaining walls running (to separate the near parallel tracks with differing elevations) another +/-200m on either side. This is simple culvert type construction that any local contractor can do, and not tunneling - which requires specialists from outside. Couple of $10M dollars of extra structural work on top of simple at-grade construction still makes this the most economical solution by far.

 

[BurlOak]

• Extend Line 2 west to the West Mall, and start Dundas BRT operations from this point.
• Implement Waterfront West LRT as planned
• Implement Highway 427 South BRT, and extend to Long Branch.
• Create higher-order Transit on Queensway.

These create conditions that make transit operations and transfers more efficient, and spur development in multiple corridors. I would consider them minor revisions to what's already laid out in The Big Move. It's a lot of money in total, but if you implement this network, piece-by-piece, I think you get something way more efficient than a crazy subway extension to Sherway; a network of 5 transit lines and 3 mobility hubs.

It looks like you are extending the B-D in the rail corridor for a good portion of the route. Then I suppose demolishing some old factories to continue cut-and-cover from East of Shornecliffe to East Mall and then some type of tunneling to get under the 427.
I would say this is easily double the cost of just staying on the rail corridor and having the lone station at Honeydale Mall. Is it worth it just to move the station to the other side of 427?

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

@DonValleyRainbow

Would there be two stations on either side of 427 in your map?

I think it ultimately depends on whether Dundas will be BRT or LRT. If it is BRT, then a Line 2 terminal west of 427 is preferable, if it is LRT, then a Line 2 terminal east of 427 is preferable.

I'd leave it up to TTC/Mx planners but ideally, yes. One at West Mall, one somewhere in the block between East Mall and Shorncliffe.

It looks like you are extending the B-D in the rail corridor for a good portion of the route. Then I suppose demolishing some old factories to continue cut-and-cover from East of Shornecliffe to East Mall and then some type of tunneling to get under the 427.
I would say this is easily double the cost of just staying on the rail corridor and having the lone station at Honeydale Mall. Is it worth it just to move the station to the other side of 427?

Again, yes. Eliminates some deadheading by buses and provides more direct access to the street.

I operate on a philosophy that we fuss too much about capital cost and not enough on the seconds costed by poor station design. Examples:

• some Sheppard stations are so f*cking deep and cost way more time to transfer/access to the subway than a cut and cover station like Dundas.
• Stations on the Mississauga Transitway are flung off to the side of a highway interchange, causing so much deadheading/wasted time by having have one or both of your buses drive in and out and loop around, or to walk/bike to/from there from the road.
• A streetcar loop like St Clair is bananas, it takes more time of offload and onload at two different spots than to do it at one through platform.

It's design flaws like this, where capital cost trumped efficient design, that add a cumulative time cost to a commute. I think it comes at a cost to the entire transit system.

 

[salsa]

As for an LRT on Queensway, it makes too much logical sense for the city to proceed with something like that. Therefore, we will never see it in our lifetime.

The Queensway bus has some of the lowest ridership of any arterial road in this city. It's barely able to support the current bus service that comes every 30 minutes, therefore to you it makes "too much logical sense" to upgrade it to an LRT?

Therefore, we will never see it in our lifetime.

I agree.

 

[crs1026]

The Queensway bus has some of the lowest ridership of any arterial road in this city. It's barely able to support the current bus service that comes every 30 minutes, therefore to you it makes "too much logical sense" to upgrade it to an LRT?

That's because
a) many feeder routes for the south end of Etobicoke that cross Queensway (Evans, Shorncliffe, Horner) are very well connected to Line 2, making an east-west connection unnecessary and
b) the development between Queensway and the QEW is only beginning and
c) the 501 is such a lousy way to get downtown that nobody goes that way, and
d) 30 minute headway is pretty inconvenient by TTC standards.

Fix 501, or replace it with the Waterfront LRT with a faster more reliable pathway downtown, and you will see riders. Wait a few years as the development takes off, and you will see more riders. Let Line 2 continue to fill up, with crowded connections at St George and Yonge, and you will see current riders changing their travel patterns.

- Paul

 

[WislaHD]

That's because
a) many feeder routes for the south end of Etobicoke that cross Queensway (Evans, Shorncliffe, Horner) are very well connected to Line 2, making an east-west connection unnecessary and
b) the development between Queensway and the QEW is only beginning and
c) the 501 is such a lousy way to get downtown that nobody goes that way, and
d) 30 minute headway is pretty inconvenient by TTC standards.

Fix 501, or replace it with the Waterfront LRT with a faster more reliable pathway downtown, and you will see riders. Wait a few years as the development takes off, and you will see more riders. Let Line 2 continue to fill up, with crowded connections at St George and Yonge, and you will see current riders changing their travel patterns.

- Paul

+1

Especially so in the scenario where the Relief Line is built to Queen West/Roncesvalles area, and people can transfer from Waterfront/Queensway LRT to DRL and to downtown.

This is the kind of network we should want to have.

 

[Rainforest]

Is it a concern that moving the Line 2 western terminus a short way west, to either Cloverdale or Sherway, will disconnect the buses that terminate there from the Kipling GO station?

Or, is the amount of transfers between the buses and GO trains minimal, anyway?

 

[crs1026]

Is it a concern that moving the Line 2 western terminus a short way west, to either Cloverdale or Sherway, will disconnect the buses that terminate there from the Kipling GO station?
Or, is the amount of transfers between the buses and GO trains minimal, anyway?

Transfer volume may be OK, but I would say, by that point GO should move west also.

I know, there's a new terminal abuilding at Kipling - but that train has left the station, and it's not a giant expense to eat in the context of a $1B subway project.

- Paul

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Transfer volume may be OK, but I would say, by that point GO should move west also.

I know, there's a new terminal abuilding at Kipling - but that train has left the station, and it's not a giant expense to eat in the context of a $1B subway project.

- Paul

Is it a concern that moving the Line 2 western terminus a short way west, to either Cloverdale or Sherway, will disconnect the buses that terminate there from the Kipling GO station?

Or, is the amount of transfers between the buses and GO trains minimal, anyway?

They should put Islington back together. MT prefers that over Kipling. I don't know why Metrolinx wants to force the buses to Kipling, it's not convenient. This is where Cloverdale or even Square One comes into play: both are better locations for bus terminals then Kipling.

 

[drum118]

They should put Islington back together. MT prefers that over Kipling. I don't know why Metrolinx wants to force the buses to Kipling, it's not convenient. This is where Cloverdale or even Square One comes into play: both are better locations for bus terminals then Kipling.

MT does not prefer Islington and can live with Kipling until Cloverdale surface. It will save MT 7 minutes per bus using Kipling over Islington.

More important, TTC, the local councilors and the resident want MT Out of Toronto 100%, considering they bring in 50% plus riders for Islington today.

Metrolinx wants Cloverdale over Kipling since its the Gateway Hub under the Big Move. It will allow GO Buses faster on/off the 427 to/from the Gateway Hub than Kipling.

Cloverdale will save MT 3-5 minutes over Kipling per bus. That will be the same saving for TTC buses as well.

The land is set aside for a new Cloverdale Terminal, as well a new GO Station.

Splitting MT into 2 different terminal will effect various MT Riders since they transfer at Islington today. To do this will forces MT to pay an extra fare to go one stop.

If one checks all the development proposal on the south side of Dundas from Kipling to 427, all industrial buildings and strip malls are history.

Using these lands and the rail corridor for a surface subway is not in the plan anymore.

As a note, a fair number of Toronto residents use MT alone various routes to get to/from work in Mississauga as well shop there. Once you remove MT from Islington to Kipling, it will effect a few. Once you do Cloverdale, it will effect a lot more.

 

[drum118]

I think what you are saying is that it is nearly impossible to go under the condo if you try to bring the line up to Dundas (yellow). Unless you demolish part of the structure, with parking above it (purple).

Going at grade just south of the condo is the much easier route (green). It is a bit tight, and the tracks would have to be stacked. There is 250m beyond the station so one track would ascend and the other descend (say at 1.25%), and that provides the 6m difference in track elevation to do it. It would sort of be a +/-150m long open sided box culvert (the side facing the condo is closed, and the side facing south is partly open to avoid complexities of tunnel related safety requirements) running east-west, with retaining walls running (to separate the near parallel tracks with differing elevations) another +/-200m on either side. This is simple culvert type construction that any local contractor can do, and not tunneling - which requires specialists from outside. Couple of $10M dollars of extra structural work on top of simple at-grade construction still makes this the most economical solution by far.

View attachment 90953

That building north of the condo would become history since it has not effect on the condo parking in the first place. The condo parking is at the south side beside the RR Corridor. Its a lot easier to build something better at the corner than what there.

As I have stated, the rail corridor is off the table for the subway. All the land west of the condo is slated for redevelopment 100% including up to the rail corridor. The residents of the condo will opposed any surface subway next to them.

Have you listen to all the complaint there has been over the years regarding the surface line from Islington To Kipling??? The switches have been the main issues.