TTC: Bloor Danforth Line 2 West Extension(s)

Discussion in 'Transportation and Infrastructure' started by Jarrek, Sep 14, 2006.

  1. Jarrek

    Jarrek Guest

    Etobicoke councillor calls for new subway station
    Milczyn to ask for environmental assessment

    Sep. 8, 2006

    A new subway station could be in the cards for the East Mall/Dundas Street West area if local Ward 5 Councillor Peter Milczyn (Etobicoke Lakeshore) gets his way.
    Milczyn will be asking city staff to cost out an environmental assessment (EA) for a subway extension of the Bloor-Danforth line from Islington Station to a new East Mall station. The updated EA would be the city's first step in the long journey toward extending the subway deeper into Etobicoke.

    But Milczyn insists that the subway extension, which is not high on the TTC's list of expansion projects, has more going for it than that because of two massive developments being proposed near the intersection combined with SNC-Lavalin's impending purchase of the Islington Station on which to build its new headquarters.

    That means, said Milczyn, that the city will have to spend about $45 million to build a new regional bus terminal at Kipling Station by 2011 or 2012. Combine that with the fact that two major landowners in the East Mall/Dundas area are submitting redevelopment proposals totalling about 5,000 units, and are offering up land on which to build a subway station, and Milczyn said the plan to extend the subway just a short distance starts to look a lot more viable.

    "These applications are willing to dedicate lands to the city for a subway right of way - obviously an exchange for density is what they want, but that's a huge part of the expense in building a subway - land acquisition," he said.

    "So you can acquire the land for free, and we're going to the province in the next two or three years asking for $45 million to pay for a new bus facility; it makes sense to nail this down so we can go to the province and instead of asking for $45 million we can ask for $145 million."

    Milczyn will be asking for a price tag on the EA at the Wednesday, Sept. 13 Etobicoke and York Community Council meeting, and he's hoping to have an answer by Toronto Council at the end of the month.

    If council debates the subway request, it will be the third subway plan that councillors have considered this year.

    The TTC is poised to begin building a subway extension to York University and beyond with provincial and possibly federal help. And last month, councillors in Scarborough studied and ultimately rejected the possibility of replacing the aging Scarborough SRT with a full-scale subway.

    Milczyn pointed out that the Etobicoke subway extension is relatively modest compared to those two proposals.

    "But in terms of the impact it would have in Etobicoke, it's massive," he said. "Hundreds of Mississauga transit buses would be off our roads, potentially hundreds of other commuter vehicles would be off our roads - it would have a big impact on those communities in Etobicoke," he said.

    "It would spur development and intensification and let us start to implement the province's smart growth plan."

  2. spmarshall

    spmarshall Guest

    Wow. That's a very interesting development.

    If built, it would have to be at the surface (no justification for tunnelling), but it would shave 10 minutes off many of the MT bus routes, and get the buses off Burnhamthorpe east of East Mall. And it might free up some of Kipling's lands as well as Islington's for new uses.
  3. roch5220

    roch5220 Guest

    So funny the title.

    I think he would have more clout, and people on board, if he got Mississauga to pitch for the SQ1 extension. I think the mall by itself is prime. Its a destination, and also, people can park and ride there during the mall's underused parking lot during non-peak mall hours.
  4. drum118

    drum118 Guest

    One thing Sq One Extension has going for it now that it has more riders than the York extensions will have. With the extension, it will attach more riders along the route as well more development. Sq One will see over 100,000 people living and working around this terminal within a 10 minute walking distance.

    There is a report going to the TTC commissioners in Sept/Oct on the new MT/GO terminal at Kipling and I will call for it to be scrap and move it to the Cloverdale area. This area will meet not only MT/GO needs better, but will address TTC issues at Kipling Station now.

    With the plans to have 15,000 new residents living in the Cloverdale area over the next 20 years, it opens a new market for TTC by having a new terminal/subway in place within the next 10 years.

    Depending on the route to get the subway built to Cloverdale, it will cost between $300-$800 for this extension.

    If you want to do it right, you scrap the current location of the Kipling station, reduce the size of the terminal as there will be only 2 bus routes using this station once the new terminal is built.

    It will do away that sharp/steep entrance into the Islington station. This will add another $400 million to the cost and take that section out of service for 6 months to 1 year to make the new connection.

    I have call for this extension to Cloverdale for years and it is part of the Toronto Act and Transit plans.

    Only problem is the money

    Regardless of cost, subways are still need. To build all the subway extension as well new ones, TTC is looking at budget of $25 Billion in capital cost plus another $60 million a year in operation cost.

    Add in another $12 Billion capital cost to buy more new additional buses, new LRT’s, expand the current streetcar system by 500km, more subway trains and so on, this becomes a major problem for not only Toronto, but Ontario as a whole.

    If this was to take place over 20 years, TTC capital budget would be $1.65 Billion per year and close to the $2 billion I call for 3 years ago.

    TTC current budget calls for $700-$800 million over the next 5 years.

    Toronto Commissioner of Transportation stated at Aug TTC meeting that TTC budget is falling short to meet Toronto Transit City Plans not only for today needs, but by 2021 when Toronto will have another 500,000 plus new residents living here. Unless TTC starts coming up with a budget to meet the city needs as will current riders needs, TTC will collapse upon itself. ...Very true..
  5. spmarshall

    spmarshall Guest

    I think there will be five routes out of Kipling - 30 Lambton, 44 Kipling South, 45 Kipling, 46 Martin Grove and 49 Bloor West, given the way the road and route structure is in that area, but it would cut the terminal needs by half by removing 111, 112, 191, 192 and probably 123 from it. Kipling will need work to integrate it better - right now it is about as integrated with the street grid as your average GO Station, but removing up to half the buses will help a lot.

    And Islington would have only the existing TTC routes (once MT is gone), and would need a small terminal.
  6. doady

    doady Guest

    It is sad that this councillor makes a very exaggerated claim that the main benefit of this extension is that it would take hundreds of MT buses of the road and downplays the effect it would have on other types of traffic (including TTC), as if MT is causing the traffic problems in Etobicoke and not the cars.

    MT has 371 buses in total and probably less than 10% of them are in Etobicoke at any given time, yet NIMBYs in Etobicoke can't stop bitching about them.

    TTC should scrap route 50, and let MT provide the service along Burnhamthorpe instead (using routes 26/206), since it already does it much better than the TTC does. The 26/206 will travel the same distance no matter which station it goes to anyways.
  7. drum118

    drum118 Guest

    I am still waiting for the report from TTC on my report and cost saving to TTC that I make over 2 years ago with MT taking over route 50. I will raise this when I make my presentation on the new MT/GO terminal.

    TTC has stated it needs to partnership with 905 systems and still waiting for this partnership.

    Geee!!!!!!!!................How many cars/trucks use the roads compare to MT? They figure it is easier to get rid of buses than it is remove the cars.

    I wonder what the NIMBY will think when LRT's plans surface to replace 26-50 service as well on Dundas when 512 show up?

    You will see 3 route 3, 3 route 26, 2 route 20, 2 route 11, 4 route 1, 3 route 206, 1 route 87,89,57, 3 route 81 and 1 route 17 buses at peak time every 10 minutes or about 25 buses, That less than 10% of MT fleet.

    There is still will be one MT route servicing Islington at this time and most likely will be route 1.

    Time for TTC to look at merging some of their routes with the 905 now, otherwise, the GTTA will do as they have the mandate to do it.

    Oh!!! What will the Etobicoke folks have to say when transit they use now after TTC stop running stop coming?
  8. dashingdan

    dashingdan Guest

    An East Mall/Cloverdale extension would make a lot of sense, rather than refurbishing Kipling after Islington is rebuilt as a non-terminal. Sure, technically Islington isn't a terminal right now, but it is for Mississauga Transit. Once the westerly extension of B-D occurs, most if not all MT buses can go there. I still see no point in Mississauga buses going any further into Etobicoke than they have to. If the TTC wants Mississauga to run buses into Toronto, then fine, as long as the buses actually stop at the first subway station they pass and not just drive by it (like they do currently with Kipling).
  9. borgos

    borgos Guest

    I'm one of those bitching Etobicoke NIMBYs. Those MT buses, especially the articulated ones, have no business on Burnhamthorpe, east of Kipling, which is quite residential. MT should stop freeloading and pay its fair share of a new terminal at Kipling.
  10. doady

    doady Guest

    So buses should not serve residential areas now?

    Burnhamthorpe is a major arterial road with access to the highway 427, so any claim that buses don't belong there is bullshit.

    And also, Mississauga Transit pays for the use of Islington bus terminal so it is not freeloading at all, so you should get your facts straight.
  11. borgos

    borgos Guest

    Burnhamthorpe, east of Kipling, is not a major arterial road and, in any event, MT does not serve this residential area. It simply speeds past it on the way to the subway. MT refuses to pay for its share of a new terminal even though one is needed as the existing one is not wheelchair accessible. MT's position is that if one is built, they will use it but they won't help pay for it. In my dictionary, that's freelaoding.
  12. Jarrek

    Jarrek Guest

    Subway expansion west to be studied
    Councillor advocates East Mall-Dundas station

    Sep. 14, 2006

    Etobicoke York Community councillors have given the green light to city staff to investigate whether a new subway station in the area of The East Mall and Dundas Street West should be built.
    With little debate, councillors approved a motion Wednesday by Ward 5 Councillor Peter Milczyn (Etobicoke-Lakeshore) asking city staff to cost out an update of an environmental assessment (EA), as well as an estimate of the land required to extend the Bloor-Danforth subway line west beyond Kipling Station.

    Milczyn said the reports from the city's chief planner and the TTC would likely come before the Toronto Council's planning and transportation committee in January, in time to be included in the city's 2007 capital budget.

    The subway extension makes sense, Milczyn said. Presently, city officials are working on moving the regional bus terminal from Islington subway to Kipling subway.

    "That will happen maybe in four or five years at a cost of about $45 million," Milczyn said yesterday in an interview. "Rather than spend that money, the optimum solution would be to pursue a glimmer of hope we could rationalize doing a subway (at a cost of about $145 million) to The East Mall at the very least."

    Land for a subway extension is being offered, free-of-charge, by the landowner of Honeydale Mall, Milczyn said.

    That landowner submitted an Official Plan amendment and rezoning application in March 2005 to the city to redevelop the property with 2,400 residential units, retail, commercial and office uses.

    The landowner has since filed an appeal with the Ontario Municipal Board citing council's inaction on the application.

    Milczyn said he remains opposed to the application.

    "The densities they're seeking are totally excessive, and they're conceptual plans. It's not buildable," he said.

    Meanwhile, Toronto Council recently declared the Islington subway station property surplus. While TTC facilities will remain, the city is in negotiation with SNC-Lavalin to buy the property.

    SNC-Lavalin wants to build its new approximately 350,000-square foot headquarters on the site.

    The city's purchase last year of the legion hall just west of Islington subway on Bloor Street West means new consolidated city of Toronto employee offices could still be built there in future, Milczyn said. The entire parcel of land is zoned for approximately 1.1 million square feet of office space, he added.

    Still, any new development at Honeydale Mall is still five, even 10 years off, Milczyn said.

    "Nothing is going to happen there for a minimum of five years," he said. "These are property owners, not developers. When they try to sell the land to a developer, it could be 10 years."
  13. Jarrek

    Jarrek Guest

  14. "SNC-Lavalin's impending purchase of the Islington Station on which to build its new headquarters."

    I would assume they are speaking of moving their current Toronto office from their Etobicoke site which is primarily focused on mining infrastructure design and management. If this is a new corporate headquarters (currently in montreal) then it definately is a significant proposal.
  15. adma

    adma Guest

    Yes, Burnhamthorpe's not Dundas or Eglinton or (at least E of Six Points) Bloor. But as a suburban four-laner, it's "arterial" enough--definitely a level above Rathburn or even Bloor-W-of-Six-Points. And the 427 interchange + the continuity w/Burnhamthorpe in Mississauga cements the fact.

    Sure, in the sense of single-family homes fronting onto it, it's "residential"; but so are large, well-trafficked (and well-bussed) sections of Eglinton and Lawrence, even in the affluent domain of North Toronto and Leaside...

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