Scarborough-Malvern LRT

[scarberiankhatru]

Didn't EnviroTO first call it Transfer City? Perhaps I'll call it Transycophant City from now on.

I only call the North York-Scarborough component of Transit City "Transfer City" (basically Sheppard Avenue and lack of a northern cross-town corridor and the Malvern section of the Scarborough-Malvern line). Otherwise, I'm generally supportive of the concept, but not its execution.

Transfer City should be executed

The Jane and Don Mills lines just dump people onto the subway, forcing people to transfer. Yeah, that's what they do now, but they shouldn't if they're going to be seen and used as rapid transit.

 

[Dan416]

I only call the North York-Scarborough component of Transit City "Transfer City" (basically Sheppard Avenue and lack of a northern cross-town corridor and the Malvern section of the Scarborough-Malvern line). Otherwise, I'm generally supportive of the concept, but not its execution.

As far as my support/criticism of Transit City, if Steve Munro was a 10, and Scarberian a 3 (because even he has been less critical of certain parts), I'd be a 5.

That's a nuanced approach, I suppose.

 

[Voltz]

The Jane and Don Mills lines just dump people onto the subway, forcing people to transfer. Yeah, that's what they do now, but they shouldn't if they're going to be seen and used as rapid transit.

Even if they where both built as subways and went down town, then most riders would still have to transfer,

and as for the just dumping riders on to the subways, I know it is a hard concept for some people to grasp, but riders do actually use transit to go places other than downtown. Part of the "rationale" behind the TC lines is to provide higher quality service to those riders, particularly the three east west lines.

 

[CapitalSeven]

Good lord, what a circle jerk. Yes, maybe someday Scarborough will justify 1 or 2 subway lines, but at this moment, arguing that all light rail lines are either too much or too little just dilutes whatever logical arguments exist. Get over the big case of vagina envy. Not everything needs to run underground in a fast invisible tube. Some things are just right on the surface, at just right speeds.

 

[Rainforest]

Rainforest

Of course, people would not take this line all the way to Kennedy from Malvern. I know that it is a strange concept for some, but people do actually use transit to get to areas other than downtown or the subway.

If this line where to actually get built out to the planned length (and weather or not it should is debatable), then I would see it as more of a local line for those on Morningside and in Malvern, and local and subway access line for those on the southern part of the route.

Certainly some passengers would make trips between Malvern and some places along that route, such as UTSC or Morningside Mall. However, do the numbers warrant LRT service?

A local LRT route around Scarborough sounds good, but perhaps it should go through places of higher density.

For example, instead of running Sheppard E LRT all the way east to Meadowvale, turn it south at Markham Rd. Run it on Markham to Eglinton, then join the Kingston Rd tracks and run back to Kennedy Stn. Such a route would connect to quite a number of nodes: two subway lines, SRT interchange, Eglinton GO, Cedarbrae Mall at Lawrence. Centennial College would be a short walk away. Btw, residents of Malvern could reach that line with one transfer, using the SRT extension.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Even if they where both built as subways and went down town, then most riders would still have to transfer,

and as for the just dumping riders on to the subways, I know it is a hard concept for some people to grasp, but riders do actually use transit to go places other than downtown. Part of the "rationale" behind the TC lines is to provide higher quality service to those riders, particularly the three east west lines.

Uh, look at a map. I didn't even mention subways...if the Jane and Don Mills lines continued past subway stations, fewer people would need to transfer and you'd give them, at least, other options. Downtown is painfully underserved by useful transit lines. Unless you remove transfers by building real rapid transit lines, people won't be able to go anywhere new...people won't be lured to transit by taking 5 minutes off a trip.

We're not talking about other lines, we're talking about the Morningside line, the Morningside stretch of which will not at all be well-used...it'll be extreme overkill to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to move a few hundred people per hour. I dare you to actually go to Scarborough and see how empty most buses are outside of rush hour, to see how full they are at the subway station during rush hour and ride the routes all the way to the end, watching as no one gets on. You could throw a dart at Scarborough and randomly select a better place than Morningside to put LRT.

Good lord, what a circle jerk. Yes, maybe someday Scarborough will justify 1 or 2 subway lines, but at this moment, arguing that all light rail lines are either too much or too little just dilutes whatever logical arguments exist. Get over the big case of vagina envy. Not everything needs to run underground in a fast invisible tube. Some things are just right on the surface, at just right speeds.

Wow, someone supports a staggering 5-6km of subway (that needn't run entirely underground)...when the underground option costs less than other options and will move many more people, it has nothing to do with vagina envy. You should actually read what people are suggesting instead of some of these precious Transfer City lines: radical GO improvements, BRT, LRT on other corridors, etc.

 

[Voltz]

I actually live in scaborough, and take a bus home every day from kennedy along much of this route, most of the time it is standing room only,

long term ridership projections for all of the TC lines are above what busses can handle, not a few hundred people per hour. A few hundred may be what the lowest off peek demand on the northern section of morningside is right now, but that is not how transit infastructure is planned.

Im not saying that the morningside line should be built out as far as planned, there are valid arguments agianst that, but it is one of the last planned to be completed, and by then things will have changed,

If everyone keeps arguing about where this line should go and how long that line shoud be and what technology should be used on them, then plans will stall and we will end up with nothing, it has happened before. There will always be negeative arguments for whatever is built

 

[scarberiankhatru]

And *nothing* should be built on Morningside other than a limited-stop bus route...that's the whole point here. If arguing about a line means preventing white elephants like Morningside and diverting attention and funds to where they need to go, we owe it to our future to argue. Unfortunately, those pushing Transfer City have no interest in public opinion or in the opinion of any experts that aren't already pushing Transycophant City.

The ridership projections for Transit City are just random numbers conjured up by people to justify placing LRT on routes that don't warrant it. What will change on Morningside in the future other than lines like the RT extension that will eat up much of Morningside's ridership base? There is no long-term potential on Morningside. None at all. Several people have already suggested cancelling the northern half of the Scarborough-Malvern line and merely extending the Eglinton line to a natural point such as Markington (or Lawrence/Kingston, depending on where the Kingston LRT goes).

If we're lucky, Metrolinx will move along fast enough to preempt all these stupid lines and plan a cohesive network, and actually study the effects of all these lines converging in Malvern or considering how lines in south Scarborough will interact with an as-yet nebulous Kingston LRT, or study how substantially all of these suburban lines would be cannibalized by GO improvements.

edit - And if you're riding the 86 or the 116 from Kennedy station, you're just proving my previous point that most riders are going downtown or to the subway.

 

[Rainforest]

Im not saying that the morningside line should be built out as far as planned, there are valid arguments agianst that, but it is one of the last planned to be completed, and by then things will have changed,

If everyone keeps arguing about where this line should go and how long that line shoud be and what technology should be used on them, then plans will stall and we will end up with nothing, it has happened before. There will always be negeative arguments for whatever is built

But that's the goal of EA / public consultation process: reviewing the route and discussing amendments. If an amendment is made now, it will not delay this project. We still have time.

On the contrary, if an amendment pops up later in the process when the route is on the drawing board and the locations of carhouses have been sorted out, it will cause problems and delays.

Interestingly, the priority of this route might get a bust. With the fiscal climate changing and large transit investments being discussed, the LRT-versus-subway debate will likely resume for the Sheppard, Eglinton, and Don Mills corridors. In this situation, the TTC might want to accelerate the work on the two LRT routes that do not compete with subway projects and do not require tunneling. Those are Finch W, and Eglinton E / Kingston Rd.

 

[Rainforest]

Several people have already suggested cancelling the northern half of the Scarborough-Malvern line and merely extending the Eglinton line to a natural point such as Markington (or Lawrence/Kingston, depending on where the Kingston LRT goes).

How about a terminus at UTSC though? Not far from Lawrence/Kingston, and a trip generator that might actually grow in future (in case UofT expands operations in Scarborough).

 

[scarberiankhatru]

It's the goal of such processes in general, but not necessarily with this EA...Sheppard East's public consultation essentially came down to asking the public if a handful of mid-block stops should be kept or discarded, and didn't do something crazy like ask people what they want or what they think Sheppard needs. For this EA, Scarberians will be told that they need the Morningside line but "public consultation" might get thrown a bone in the form of letting public opinion determine if the line loops around UTSC or just stays on the main road.

edit - as for UTSC, it's better approached from east/west, along Ellesmere. The natural path for more people to travel to UTSC would be a transit line along Ellesmere that collects riders from all the north/south routes and from the RT/Sheppard corridors at STC and takes them straight over. There's always a few people who would ride another 2km if only a line went 'just one more stop' (Lawrence/Kingston is already 'just one more stop' beyond Markington that may overlap a Kingston line). A cheaper yet better transit fix for Scarborough would be extending the Danforth line to STC and letting LRT (or BRT) branch out from there, up McCowan, to Malvern, along Ellesmere. UTSC does a lot more for the Morningside line than the Morningside line will do for UTSC students.

 

[EnviroTO]

Didn't EnviroTO first call it Transfer City? Perhaps I'll call it Transycophant City from now on.

Transfer City should be executed

It will be executed once you can get from North York to Scarborough Centre and Downtown (Yonge & Bloor) to Scarborough Centre without a transfer. Until then it is Transfer City regardless of what you decide to call it.

 

[Dan416]

It'll be Tranfer City for many years to come I'm afraid. There's no one-seat ride from MCC to downtown either.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

I stopped by the meeting last night and the preferred route will be Eglinton, Kingston, Morningside, a shared section on Sheppard, then Neilson up to Malvern Town Centre. There will be a spur or a connection of some sort (to be determined) to UTSC.

Map here:

http://tinyurl.com/5ncepr

 

[RedRocket191]

I'm wondering. If the city chooses the Highway 401-Neilson Road alignment for the SRT extension, then there would be no need to bring this line north of Sheppard.