Adjei
Senior Member
Thats a pretty good idea!
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ksun
Senior Member
except there are still too many loopholes
For example, if John and Mary shared a day pass to take the 501 Saturday. Mary needs to get off first with the day pass because she has other errands to run, and John is going straight home. Then an inspector checks John and he can't provide a POP, although he boarded the streetcar legally.
Also, one can take the subway from Dundas station to Bathurst station, take a transfer and take the 511 south bound, and then take the 505 east bound, completing a return trip paying one fare, and a TTC inspector can find nothing wrong with that.
I can't give many similar scenarios. The current payment system is simply broken and shouldn't be adopted in the first place. I can't count how many times people take multiple transfers in the subway station (for illegal use possibly).
Napoleon
Active Member
I'm a little baffled as to why half of transit agencies have zero problems implementing electronic fare cards and half of them fail miserably. Especially hard to understand when so many of them use Accenture for the implementation. By now, there must be a dozen systems, from Suica in Japan, to the Oyster card in London, to Clipper in SF (which was previously called Translink), etc., that have independently re-invented this wheel. Why not just pay another transit agency to adopt their technology wholesale?
cplchanb
Senior Member
Another reason to just adopt the 2hr transfer and be done with it. I'm still baffled on why the St Clair trial hasnt produced any decisions yet.
Heres another Presto Dilemma that will hopefully be resolved sooner than later:
I board VIVA pink with Presto and take it to Woodbine or any TTC North Route. SURPRISE!! Because theres no printed transfer I can't prove that I've paid on VIVA when I board the TTC bus
muller877
Senior Member
Because someone wants to build a government funded empire. Octopus (HK card) sells their system to other cities and is very versatile. They have sold it to Auckland, Dubai and the entire country of the Netherlands. It also can be integrated so it is your library card and can be used at Starbucks and 7-11 among other stores in HK.
Based on the base budget the government always shows that it would cost the same to buy vs build. But of course the buy is a fixed price and the build ends up being more costly in the long run. (90%+ of the time)
ksun
Senior Member
Right on.
In Suzhou, a second tier Chinese city most Canadians probably never heard of, you can use the fare card to board any subway/buses, taxis and at most convenient stores, department stores, and gas stations. You can even use it to pay your utility bills. You can buy this card at any convenience stores as well as subway stations. You can recharge online or many kiosks and it is almost instant (no 24 hour waiting).
and they had this card since ... 2003.
And we are still spending so much time and money on this, pretending it is some advanced technology we will be so lucky to be able to use in a couple of years.
allabootmatt
Senior Member
I am sort of baffled as to why everyone just doesn't adopt Oyster. It works perfectly. I have literally never once had an issue with it -- and it's handling a fare system vastly more complex than anything that will ever be implemented in Toronto.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Because we need a Made in Canada solution (nevermind that it's by a multinat) to brag about a decade past vogue? It doesn't help that we have to this date still the belief out there (among certain transit champions) that somehow tokens are tickets/transfers are still "fine" either. For some odd reason we always have trouble getting these massive IT projects horribly wrong (another case in point is E-health).
We really, really need to stop looking at the US and compare ourselves to them. It's a horribly low bar.
AoD
We really, really need to stop looking at the US and compare ourselves to them. It's a horribly low bar.
AoD
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wopchop
Building Toronto
I don't know the exact specifics of Presto-cost or other options, but isn't it quite possible that these other systems, now that they have them working properly are not simply looking to give their system away for altruistic reasons and actually want to make a profit on them?
If that's the case, then they might have issued quotations to Metrolinx that were simply too high (ie higher than the allotted budget) on paper compared to Accenture's proposal for the Presto system. Sure, those quotations wouldn't include cost overruns, but on paper years ago, it might have looked more attractive and may even have been the only acceptable option given the government allocated budget.
If that's the case, then they might have issued quotations to Metrolinx that were simply too high (ie higher than the allotted budget) on paper compared to Accenture's proposal for the Presto system. Sure, those quotations wouldn't include cost overruns, but on paper years ago, it might have looked more attractive and may even have been the only acceptable option given the government allocated budget.
nfitz
Superstar
And in London, which has had all the problems with Oyster, there was a recent case where they found an employee in a big City banking firm was gaming the system, gathered video evidence, took their time, and presented him with a huge bill, fines ... and when it made the news, his employer fired him.
No matter what you do, the dregs of society will find a way to steal . How do they stop people using counterfeit coins and tokens in the current fare boxes?
Works perfectly? Despite the years it took to fully roll-out? Despite it's huge limitations compared to Presto in reloading on-line? And with all the complaints? Go to a London-based transit forum - it's full of the same kind of whining about Oyster that those who think the grass is always greener elsewhere make everywhere!
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
It's been greener for more than a decade now - certainly usage during that time constitute bragging rights.
AoD
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ksun
Senior Member
you mean reloading on-line which takes 24 hours to clear? there is nothing impressive about that. Just a regular recharging kiosk is fine.
Yes, the grass is probably greener elsewhere, but the other side is definitely not TTC. I can hardly imagine some Londoners will say "Oyster is a mess, look at what Toronto has, it is so much better, tokens and paper transfers!"
The truth is, every single city I have been to with a subway system has a better fare system than TTC. Some cities are greener, but Toronto is not greener in anybody's eyes.
Markster
Senior Member
Aha, I can tell you haven't been to Los Angeles!
[edit] actually, in the context of electronic fare cards, I don't actually know the benefits/drawbacks of TAP. My gut response was due to the overall fare structure across L.A. County, which is sheer madness.
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ksun
Senior Member
really?
LA's single tickets allows a 2 hour transfer (which is exactly what we need) and its day pass once tapped, allows full day unlimited trips until 2m the next day, unlike in Toronto, a TTC person needs to scratch the day pass and each driver will have to visually inspect the validity of the pass.
Do you realize how silly the paper transfer at TTC is? The time and direction of the previous trip is indicated by where the transfer is punched - but seriously, how often do the drivers and subway gate inspectors check that? What prevents me from using a token and walk into king station, get 12 paper transfers (nobody checks), arrive at Queen, and give the remaining 11 transfers to my 11 friends. Voila, 11 trips from Queen/Yonge for free! The same trick is possible with day passes on weekends.
The LA system is far better.
All we need is a fare card that allows fare to be deducted for each trip. Machines should be installed on each bus/streetcar which will know it is a transfer (within 2 hours should do it), not the start of a trip. ideally, the card should also have a daily and month maximum equivalent to whatever the day/monthly pass is worth so that no additional cost occurs beyond that. Most passengers really don't need anything more complicated than that. I would propose a fare by distance for subways but people will cry for the poor people again so I don't go there.
nfitz
Superstar
The same thing that stops you simply walking out of a grocer store with a loaf of bread without paying.
Personally, I've never observed anyone standing at a transfer machine getting 12 transfers before. Do you observe this happening often?