Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The same thing that stops you simply walking out of a grocer store with a loaf of bread without paying.

Personally, I've never observed anyone standing at a transfer machine getting 12 transfers before. Do you observe this happening often?

Let's not pick on hyperbole though - the fact of the matter is fare evasion under the current (soon to be replaced, thankfully) system is incredibly easy, with the whole process from payment to verification requiring way too much human involvement while producing subpar results.

AoD

 

[TOareaFan]

All we need is a fare card that allows fare to be deducted for each trip. Machines should be installed on each bus/streetcar which will know it is a transfer (within 2 hours should do it), not the start of a trip. ideally,

isn't that kinda what we are rolling out?

 

[Napoleon]

If that's the case, then they might have issued quotations to Metrolinx that were simply too high (ie higher than the allotted budget) on paper compared to Accenture's proposal for the Presto system. Sure, those quotations wouldn't include cost overruns, but on paper years ago, it might have looked more attractive and may even have been the only acceptable option given the government allocated budget.

They must have a really low-ball bid and then when they figure out what a mess the internal workings are, raise the price with lots of change orders.

The one exception was the SF Bay Area. There, to be fair, the transit agencies really are a mess...too many of them with too many different fare structures. I remember reading that BART was being especially difficult since it wanted its fare moneys to be kept separately since they make a lot of money off the float.

 

[ksun]

isn't that kinda what we are rolling out?

Probably it is, but I hear about all the fancy functions such as using cellphones/debit cards to pay fare, which is really unnecessary.
If it is as simple as I said, it shouldn't have take so many years, honestly. In 2015, having that kind of payment system is as basic as having paved roads.

The same thing that stops you simply walking out of a grocer store with a loaf of bread without paying.

Personally, I've never observed anyone standing at a transfer machine getting 12 transfers before. Do you observe this happening often?

No, it is not the same, because the alarm at the store will probably go off, while nothing prevents someone from taking 12 transfers.

I probably haven't seen anyone taking 12, but I have seen on many occasions where passengers keep pressing the button and grab at least 4 or 5. Nobody is there to monitor. You are not to get any transfer if you have a day pass, but who would know you entered with a day pass or metropass to start with? Nobody can prove anything unless maybe you pull the video. The point is when the risk of getting caught and being punished is negligible, you are essentially encouraging people to evade fare, and this is exactly what TTC is doing.

And maybe if the fare system were better, the fare didn't have to be this high in the first place. We have estimates about the cost due to fare evasion, but in reality, who would know? You simply can't.

 

[bennessb]

Nothing on Presto, but this CityLab article dives pretty deep into integrated fare cards. We really should just be using our smartphones already.

Last weekend my presto card was autoloaded twice on one trip without dipping below the minimum I set up online. So I guess I'm rich with transit ride options for the time being.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Nothing on Presto, but this CityLab article dives pretty deep into integrated fare cards. We really should just be using our smartphones already.

Last weekend my presto card was autoloaded twice on one trip without dipping below the minimum I set up online. So I guess I'm rich with transit ride options for the time being.

Smartphone penetration is barely above 50% in Canada - which means you would still need some kind of parallel system to serve those who doesn't have a smartphone, or are disinclined to use it for payment purposes. Smartphone payment should be (and I think it will be under Presto NG) supported, but not required at this point.

AoD

 

[bennessb]

Smartphone penetration is barely above 50% in Canada - which means you would still need some kind of parallel system to serve those who doesn't have a smartphone, or are disinclined to use it for payment purposes. Smartphone payment should be (and I think it will be under Presto NG) supported, but not required at this point.

AoD

I think it's an answer to the proprietary systems challenge presented in the article, although I'm not sure if any systems in the region have their own tap cards right now. Anybody know?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I think it's an answer to the proprietary systems challenge presented in the article, although I'm not sure if any systems in the region have their own tap cards right now. Anybody know?

We already have a proprietary system - I don't see the rationale for slapping yet another independent one on top when it should simply be an extension of the current system - especially when it is getting so close to going universal within the GTHA.

As to the other question - I think Brantford uses their own system:

http://www.brantford.ca/RESIDENTS/ROADSTRANSPORTATION/PUBLIC_TRANSIT/Pages/BusFares.aspx

Apparently Kingston also has their own.

AoD

 

[bennessb]

The article talks about a hypothetical future world where people want to use their universal fare card for complementary forms of transit like say, zipcars.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The article talks about a hypothetical future world where people want to use their universal fare card for complementary forms of transit like say, zipcars.

I think having mass adoption provides a lot of leverage for additional service providers being interested in using that mode of payment. There is nothing particularly hypothetical about it - Octopus in Hong Kong had been doing that for ages. The key was having a large customer base (i.e. transit riders that have the card by default).

While a smartphone based system can hold promise, it can also be an awful experience - one app for each mode all with their own wallet, which had to be tied to a credit card or account; or a payment app that is only interested in providing the transaction service and none of the integrating/ancillary benefits.

AoD

 

[Napoleon]

While a smartphone based system can hold promise, it can also be an awful experience - one app for each mode all with their own wallet, which had to be tied to a credit card or account; or a payment app that is only interested in providing the transaction service and none of the integrating/ancillary benefits.

Specifically, each different system needs to give up the idea of having their own "purse" that independently loads and dispenses money. The success of Suica, Pasmo, and Octopus are that you just load money to the account in one purse, and then that money is simply paid out to each transit provider. Some systems, like BART in SF, are very reluctant to give up the float they make on holding cash in their own purse.

Now, of course, passes are a separate item and that's perfectly fine for each system to have their own set up.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Specifically, each different system needs to give up the idea of having their own "purse" that independently loads and dispenses money. The success of Suica, Pasmo, and Octopus are that you just load money to the account in one purse, and then that money is simply paid out to each transit provider. Some systems, like BART in SF, are very reluctant to give up the float they make on holding cash in their own purse.

Now, of course, passes are a separate item and that's perfectly fine for each system to have their own set up.

No kidding - just look at how long TTC held out against Presto (for various reasons). Another side benefit is data analysis - a centralized payment system can be an excellent way of collecting system usage data that collated to support planning activities. (even better if there is a tap off function).

AoD

 

[nfitz]

Last weekend my presto card was autoloaded twice on one trip without dipping below the minimum I set up online. So I guess I'm rich with transit ride options for the time being.

It never dips below the minimum. The algorithm is set to autoload so the next charge doesn't take it below the minimum.

Though how it would do it twice on one trip I don't know ... I've never seen that, and I've had Autoload running smoothly now for nearly 5 years.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If I reload a Presto card at a customer service outlet, does it reload instantly, or will I have to wait 24 hours like with online reloads?

 

[Jonny5]

If I reload a Presto card at a customer service outlet, does it reload instantly, or will I have to wait 24 hours like with online reloads?

Customer service outlets and automated Presto loading machines add to the card instantly.