GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

[TOareaFan]

With Oct 19 behind us, and an extra $2bn pledged towards GO electrification ("GO RER", "SmartTrack", or any brand name), this question is begged:

When's the first electrification-related construction shovel in the ground?

Substations, catenary, electrical infrastructure, ordering of electric trains, etc?

the provincial government was doing this anyway...they were doing it when they were taking all the financial cost/risk themselves....the fact that a small amount of it will come from the Feds should have no impact on timing. It will happen when it happens....I would think.

 

[mdrejhon]

the provincial government was doing this anyway...they were doing it when they were taking all the financial cost/risk themselves....the fact that a small amount of it will come from the Feds should have no impact on timing. It will happen when it happens....I would think.

Over the last two decades... you have seen how provincial/federal works against each other, as well as work together. I've seen it delay projects by a few years, and accelerate other projects.

Look at Transport Canada staffing cutbacks that occured under Harper, for example. That can, for example, delay approval of a new signalling system, and even safety issues such as bringing electricity into a Transport Canada regulated corridor near passengers, etc.

Whether it's about CPP (pension) or EA (environmental assessments), or mudane stuff like electrification approvals/permits by federal agencies, there are ways for Federal to slow down Provincial.

Thusly, my post is a legitimate question, as the crystal ball picture suddenly changed Oct 19th.
Anyone else care to comment?

 

[jcam]

I would imagine that Kitchener will be first because the EA is done already. As for the $2B, does that mean the province will have an extra $2B to allocate to some 'Next Wave' projects?

 

[mdrejhon]

I would imagine that Kitchener will be first because the EA is done already. As for the $2B, does that mean the province will have an extra $2B to allocate to some 'Next Wave' projects?

My interpretation is that it is additive to Ontario funding.

e.g. $13.5bn (GO RER, including Ontario's own share of elements of GO RER that Tory calls "SmartTrack") plus federal $2.6bn (combined electrification and funds for GO RER elements that Tory calls "SmartTrack").

Basically, my interpretation is that the entire GO RER umbrella is now $13.5bn (provincial) + $2.6bn (federal) + $2.6bn (city)

That ought to be enough for electrification GO-wide, plus a big batch of EMUs for EMU-ready routes (i.e. Bramalea-Stoufville) plus a hella lot of infill stations. Although funding for whatever Eglinton/Airport GO RER/SmartTrack section should really, really, really be redirected to a very long ECLRT extension instead. That politics isn't over yet...

But even before it's over, some shovels towards electrification need to occur, soon. Before the next election.
Don't we need to electrify to the new Whitby facility, perhaps?

 

[crs1026]

Thusly, my post is a legitimate question, as the crystal ball picture suddenly changed Oct 19th.
Anyone else care to comment?

I don't foresee any great rush to jump-start anything. Any number of things will have to be done in Ottawa before any money starts flowing - likely a budget, and then some sort of program development to firm up what the rules and criteria are for infrastructure projects and who gets priority. New ministers will have to be briefed, any number of new and old MP's will have demands to make, etc etc. And there may be co-funding strings attached - yes we will match the provincial or municipal funding for something, once you go pull together your share.

To answer your question, turn back the clock to the day after the Toronto mayoral election and imagine you asked "So when do the shovels hit the ground for Smart Track?". You can see how that turned out (although they may, some day).

I do believe money will arrive, but Ottawa's only interest in these projects is to get credit for funding them, they will not push for speedy execution. Metrolinx is working some files already, and the outcome of the election will give them some comfort to keep slogging, but they will do them at the pace they can handle, and the Province demands.

- Paul

 

[gweed123]

I think that the only impact that Ottawa would potentially have is requesting that segments of track that carry VIA traffic would get upgrade priority, so that there's a potential VIA service boost along with RER. This does align well with the overall priorities for Metrolinx (LSW, LSE, and KIT), but it could potentially shift some smaller items within those projects around. For example, adding tracks first and THEN electrifying, or installing grade separations at select roadways. I bring up the tracks example because GO is planning a service ramp up leading up to GO RER, it's not like they're not planning any service increases between now and RER. This may squeeze VIA in some locations, so they'd be looking to get relief there before the money is spent on electrification.

Of course, this would also lower the price tag for any kind of HSR, since the urban corridors would already be taken care of.

 

[mdrejhon]

Of course, this would also lower the price tag for any kind of HSR, since the urban corridors would already be taken care of.

Speculating further:
Would the late 2010s/early 2020s include, possibly, HSR funding?

Ontario's High Speed EA is well under way, and those things take a few years.

Given the Liberals desire to spend on infrastructure over the coming years, this may shift HSR a few percent closer to reality; perhaps as part of RER Phase II. Obviously, it wouldn't arrive quickly, but both DRL and HSR could be on the agenda and arrive loosely at the same time in the 2030s-2040. LON-KIT-TOR is far easier to build than TOR-OTT-MON, and close enough together to provide daily commuter service that can pay its own farebox. Most Canadians think of TOR-OTT-MON, but the farebox favours LON-KIT-TOR, being a much shorter route that's daily commutable, in the same vein as France/Japan daily commuting by HSR to work. It could simply be rolled into RER Phase II. Many old bilevel coaches will go EOL around that time anyway, and high speed GO trains could arrive on one routing such as KIT (i.e. replacing Kitchener express trains). By then, LRTs will be long running in both London and Kitchener with good densification warranting HSR. If transit-happy governments govern from 2015-2025, construction could very well begin for a 2030s service timeline.

 

[TOareaFan]

Speculating further:
Would the late 2010s/early 2020s include, possibly, HSR funding?

Wouldn't we have one or two elections by then?

 

[BMO]

Wouldn't we have one or two elections by then?

I think the belief is that if construction and funding can be set within this election term it'll be difficult for future governments to cancel a project of this magnitude.

 

[TOareaFan]

I think the belief is that if construction and funding can be set within this election term it'll be difficult for future governments to cancel a project of this magnitude.

oh..ok...I thought he was saying funding could become available in the late 2010s to early 2020s.

 

[Bojaxs]

Am I the only one who thinks all this Smart Track, RER, Electrification stuff is all just a pipe dream? I don't think the politicians are very serious about electrifying the system either.

A lot of people seem to be under estimating the scope of work and money that would be needed to electrify the network. We're talking about entire tracks being ripped up. Electric trains need concrete ties to ride on. Not the wooden ties currently being used.

Frieght trains wold not be able to share the same tracks with electric GO tains.

Union station would need to be rebuilt to accommodate electric trains.

I don't think the politicians are very serious about electrifying the network, because they're currently rebuilding Union station without planning for future electric trains. They're purchasing new bi-level cab cars for the existing diesel trains. The provincial government is spending a lot of money updating the infrastructure for diesel trains.

I think the government is going to keep electrification in an in definite state of "research and planning". Make it seem like they're working on it, when really they aren't.

I think the government is even starting to backtrack a bit.
http://www.mississauga.com/news-sto...-are-one-and-the-same-service-says-metrolinx/

Honestly, in my opinion I don't understand why everyone is in a hurry to electrify the system. I think the existing diesel system can still be vastly improved upon.

 

[TOareaFan]

Am I the only one who thinks all this Smart Track, RER, Electrification stuff is all just a pipe dream?

You may very well be.

 

[robmausser]

I will correct you where necessary

A lot of people seem to be under estimating the scope of work and money that would be needed to electrify the network. We're talking about entire tracks being ripped up. Electric trains need concrete ties to ride on. Not the wooden ties currently being used..

No, you can use wooden ties. Where did you hear this?

http://www.hsl-canada.net/files/amt_deux_montagnes.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3201/2841291019_a2336082a3.jpg

Frieght trains wold not be able to share the same tracks with electric GO tains.

100% of the electrification will be done on Metrolinx owned track, where freight does not typically go. When it does need to use these tracks, on the rare occasion, freight can use the line without issue. The overhead wires will accommodate this, as per the December 5th, 2014 Metrolinx meeting.

Union station would need to be rebuilt to accommodate electric trains.

I don't think the politicians are very serious about electrifying the network, because they're currently rebuilding Union station without planning for future electric trains.

Where did you hear this? Union was upgraded with electrification in mind.

They're purchasing new bi-level cab cars for the existing diesel trains. The provincial government is spending a lot of money updating the infrastructure for diesel trains.

Its still needed after electrification. Electrification will only work in certain areas, a lot of the fringe stations in the network will still be serviced by diesel for decades to come. Do you think the bi-levels we currently have will last forever? Some of them are over 40 years old.

Honestly, in my opinion I don't understand why everyone is in a hurry to electrify the system. I think the existing diesel system can still be vastly improved upon.

No it cannot, as we are seeing larger increase in development in the inner GTA. This is best serviced by fast accelerating EMU electric trains. The BiLevels were designed for high occupancy in peak periods because they shared track with freight; there are only certain times you could slot in trains to operate. Now that Metrolinx owns the lines, and the inner GTA is seeing huge growth, EMU trains are needed to properly service it.

Can a diesel train do this?

The advantages are immediately obvious.

In the end, electrification of the GO network will be a breeze compared to any other options, like tunnelling and building a subway.

The first phase of the Kitchener Line will probably start in 2018 and complete in 2020, about the same time the Eglinton LRT will be done, which started in 2010!!!

 

[Adjei]

Imagine one of these beauties running here! The system should have been electrified ages ago. We are so behind...

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Am I the only one who thinks all this Smart Track, RER, Electrification stuff is all just a pipe dream? I don't think the politicians are very serious about electrifying the system either.

RER and electrification are definitely possible and I have faith it will be completed. When? That I don't know, but not soon enough.

As for SmartTrack, it is a pipe dream. It is a joke and a waste of money, but I'll spare my rant for another thread.