York Region Transit: Viva service thread

[Epi]

VIVA Blue is not a secondary bus service on Yonge, it the route 99 is the one that's the expendable secondary service, operating at half the frequency of VIVA Blue at all times. What is so hard to understand about this really? You are not using your head right.

And the Yonge bus is a secondary service to the subway.... and the bus runs after the subway stops running.

So what if VIVA stops running earlier than the subway? The demand at night is less and doesn't justify it.

And I think if you must get anal about it, the demand at night might not necessarily justify the current subway north of Eglinton either, as the night buses during construction have clearly shown. But we still run the subway anyway, because it's there and most people are going to major streets anyway. VIVA meanwhile isn't 'there' because it's a bus, not a physical piece of infrastructure which costs much less to run once it's built. Same thing will happen if the subway is extended north on Yonge... it will run until closing, even if there may not be enough riders, just because it's there and it's pretty cheap to run because it's running from downtown anyway.

 

[xtremesniper]

VIVA Blue is not a secondary bus service on Yonge, it the route 99 is the one that's the expendable secondary service, operating at half the frequency of VIVA Blue at all times. What is so hard to understand about this really? You are not using your head right.

Well clearly YRT has already chosen it's side in the matter, as they have taken Viva out of service and left route 99 in its place at that time of night. So, it's not just my head that isn't being used right, it must be everyone else's but yours.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

And the Yonge bus is a secondary service to the subway.... and the bus runs after the subway stops running.

So what if VIVA stops running earlier than the subway? The demand at night is less and doesn't justify it.

And I think if you must get anal about it, the demand at night might not necessarily justify the current subway north of Eglinton either, as the night buses during construction have clearly shown. But we still run the subway anyway, because it's there and most people are going to major streets anyway. VIVA meanwhile isn't 'there' because it's a bus, not a physical piece of infrastructure which costs much less to run once it's built. Same thing will happen if the subway is extended north on Yonge... it will run until closing, even if there may not be enough riders, just because it's there and it's pretty cheap to run because it's running from downtown anyway.

A big reason that the subway is closed at night is not due to lack of demand but due to the need for maintenence. There is demand for 24 hr subway service at least south of Bloor there is.

You also just proved why the VIVA routes should be kept over the local routes. We run the subway up to Finch and Downsview late at night, not becuase there is demand there but because the infrastructure is there and if you are going to provide the service along the corrider than, barring an extremely unbalanced cost/benefit ratio, you run the prime service first.

There are many features on VIVA that do make it much more than just a glorified bus (can't believe I'm defending VIVA!). The prepaid nature of the system, the bus arrival timer system, even from a driver protection point of view VIVA drivers are kept away from passengers who at that hour might be apt to violent behaviour.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If one bus must be kept at night, the local Yonge bus is better. It's just as fast, but offers, arguably, better service since it makes local stops, reducing walking times at night (and, yes, that is safer, both for people walking alone at night and for people walking around drunk).

And I think if you must get anal about it, the demand at night might not necessarily justify the current subway north of Eglinton either, as the night buses during construction have clearly shown.

What is clear is that the subway replacement buses are routinely overcrowded, although the frequency being higher than the subway occasionally means a bus leaves with few people on it (after two or more full buses have already left). That has decreased, though, since the subway started stopping at Eglinton rather than Lawrence (resulting in an increase in replacement bus ridership). The replacement buses are often standing room only at Sheppard, and on, say, Fridays, they're standing room only even at Finch.

 

[doady]

VIVA Blue gets around an average 15,960 riders per weekday and saw its final trip cut back to 12 am, in favour of an extension of service for 99 Yonge, which gets only 3,436 riders, less a quarter of what the VIVA Blue.

Lets see all the routes in the 905 (not including GO) that have service until 2am (or later) and their ridership:

1 Dundas - 15,746
3 Bloor - 8,186
5 Dixie - 8,798
11 Westwood - 2,795
13 Glen Erin - 4,410
19 Hurontario - 23,189
26 Burnhamthorpe - 11,860
48 Erin Mills - 3,606

1 Queen - 9,724
11 Steeles - 7,457

As you can see, all but one of these routes have less ridership than VIVA Blue (and some even have less ridership than VIVA Purple for that matter) and most of them do not even connect to the subway.

VIVA Blue is not only the busiest in York, it is also the second busiest in the 905. It is the busiest 905 route connecting to the subway. This is not a minor or secondary route by any standard. It is definitely one of the main bus routes in the GTA. And yet there are many lesser routes that have better late night service. VIVA Blue is also a higher order transit service, just like the subway, and that implies it should be at the top of the hierarchy when it comes to service.

Note also that 99 Yonge is the only route in York Region with any late night service, which is pretty sad.

Well clearly YRT has already chosen it's side in the matter, as they have taken Viva out of service and left route 99 in its place at that time of night. So, it's not just my head that isn't being used right, it must be everyone else's but yours.

Of course the people at YRT cannot think properly. YRT has no idea what "higher order transit" means (and obviously you not either), otherwise the VIVA routes would not have limited hours compared with the regular routes.

YRT does not know what "express" means either, judging from the way VIVA Purple detours into Unionville GO and York University instead of routes 1 and 77.

Bottom line is, YRT does not know how to provide proper transit service, and that is why York Region has such poor ridership compared to Brampton and Mississauga.

 

[Rainforest]

YRT does not know what "express" means either, judging from the way VIVA Purple detours into Unionville GO and York University instead of routes 1 and 77.

York University is a major trip generator for the VIVA Purple route. Not going there would kill ridership west of Yonge. In fact, VIVA Purple does not "detour" to York U, it is a terminus for that route.

 

[doady]

York University is a major trip generator for the VIVA Purple route. Not going there would kill ridership west of Yonge. In fact, VIVA Purple does not "detour" to York U, it is a terminus for that route.

The original VIVA Purple extended all the way into Woodbridge where VIVA Orange terminates now. So yes, York U is a detour. Actually, the service to York U is not such a bad idea now that the service west is gone; it does make the route more direct now, as a rapid transit line should be, but the detour into Unionville station is unacceptable.

 

[Second_in_pie]

The original VIVA Purple extended all the way into Woodbridge where VIVA Orange terminates now. So yes, York U is a detour. Actually, the service to York U is not such a bad idea now that the service west is gone; it does make the route more direct now, as a rapid transit line should be, but the detour into Unionville station is unacceptable.

Seriously? York U is the most logical terminus for the line. Without a subway going up there, Orange is needed. Once the Spadina Exension is finished, then Purple will run pretty much totally on Highway 7, so I don't see the problem with that.

As for Purple running through Enterprise and Markham Town Center, I see absolutely no reason for it not to. It's the most logical place to run a Rapid Transit service. Highway 7 between Warden and Kennedy is just as barren as eastern Enterprise, except Enterprise is soon going to have thousands of new inhabitants. I imagine that once Markham Town Center expands northwards to Highway 7, plans to reconstruct Highway 7 will surely include a rapidway. That way, they can either run every other bus along Highway 7/Enterprise, or have Viva Green run the Enterprise route from Kennedy or McCowan all day. Either way, Enterprise will still be in the middle of the City Center, and is a more logical route to run RT on.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Actually, running along Enterprise instead of Hwy 7 for that stretch has nothing to do with residents and everything to do with the connection to the GO station and serving the employment buildings, which are planned to pop up close to the 407, not Hwy 7. Quite a few more people will live along Hwy 7 for that stretch than Enterprise, but only Enterprise will have the stores, jobs, and GO station that really generate trips.

 

[Rainforest]

The original VIVA Purple extended all the way into Woodbridge where VIVA Orange terminates now. So yes, York U is a detour. Actually, the service to York U is not such a bad idea now that the service west is gone; it does make the route more direct now, as a rapid transit line should be ...

Yes, the original VIVA Purple ran all the way to Martin Grove during the peak hours, sharing the route west of York U with Orange. Off-peak, the arrangement was same as now: Purple from Markham to York U, and Orange from Downsview via York U to Martin Grove.

Perhaps the ridership west of York U did not justify two routes even during the peak hours, so they decided to shorten the Purple. And this is OK, the route works well and has decent ridership even on weekends.

If any VIVA route needs a fix, it is Orange. The ridership between Downsview and York U is pathetically low, they should have allowed TTC riders on that segment years ago, but an announcement of such integration has been made just recently. Plus, Martin Grove is not a particularly logical terminus, the route should run into Brampton along with 77. Perhaps that will happen once Brampton builds AcceleRide.

 

[taal]

The ridership figures on Viva have always seemed off to me, is it just me?

It feels like it should be closer to 20 - 25K. During rush hour what do they run at now, 8min? and there's typically 2 buses together. Off peek time is 10min during the week? It's a pretty long route as well.

Compared to many TTC routes it seems just as busy while in fact the TTC routes are actually much busier on average.

Probably the key difference is the over crowding on the TTC buses along with the lower frequency in off peek times (and peek as well I guess)

 

[Second_in_pie]

The ridership figures seem right to me. I think that YRT's one of those services that gets laughed at a bit, along with DRT. That said, I imagine that once Viva gets those ROWs in, ridership across the whole system will skyrocket. I hope that the rapidways will be accompanied by better signaling priority. Better as in when the bus gets to the traffic light, it turns green kind of signal priority.

Once they get their base services going, I imagine they'll start providing better service on other routes. Some can be really reliable, while others aren't at all. It'll be a cool change to see and be a part of. Of course, the government's going to have to get back on track with funding for all of these. Both the initial cost of constructing subways, ROWs and buying Busses/LRTs/Subways, but also better subsidies so there can be better service with lower fares.

 

[BMO]

also don't forget that lots of rides between highwa 7 and finch ar done on viva pink as well, because it goes from Finch, to richmond Hill Centre, then East to unionville GO

 

[Epi]

A big reason that the subway is closed at night is not due to lack of demand but due to the need for maintenence. There is demand for 24 hr subway service at least south of Bloor there is.

While it IS true that maintenance is highly necessary, one advantage of the night bus is that it stops much more frequently. This is preferred by women especially as it is a shorter walk home at night. As well, during the day there are more ways to get home from an express service (i.e. connect to local bus, be picked up by someone) as opposed to the night, so having a service that stops closer to your final destination is worth it, especially since there's no traffic at night, and there isn't that many people riding anyway to significantly slow down your journey.

 

[Chuck]

VIVA Blue gets around an average 15,960 riders per weekday and saw its final trip cut back to 12 am, in favour of an extension of service for 99 Yonge, which gets only 3,436 riders, less a quarter of what the VIVA Blue.

The predominant reason why VIVA was implemented in the first place was to reduce the travel time on well used transit routes such as Yonge. Consider that on local bus routes during rush hour, it takes 51 and 91 minutes to travel to Bernard and Newmarket, but only 41 and 64 minutes on VIVA. However, even when served by local buses, the same trips take 33 and 55 minutes after midnight.

Call it what you want, but at its core, VIVA is just an express bus route like any other, except that it happens to use different buses and has fancier stops. As shown above, there is no purpose for express service after midnight, and if anything it would be an inconvenience by not stopping everywhere. If YRT still wants to capitalize on the VIVA brand even after midnight, it should continue to operate route 98/99 as is, but put VIVA buses on the route instead.