York Region Transit: Viva service thread

[Leo_Chan]

I think this has been brought up before, but why was the Davis Drive Viva Yellow Rapidway built so early and without demand. IIRC, Davis Drive only had a few YRT routes prior to the construction of the Rapidway and had NO VIVA SERVICE.

I understand that Yonge/Davis Drive is a UGC for "Downtown Newmarket", but why would they build out a full blown (not even to 404 thankfully) BRT even though they didn't even have On-Street Viva Service with Curbside stations to see if ridership warrants BRT?

If the Davis Drive Rapidway wasn't built, but instead Viva Yellow only was added, then would it be safe to say that the cost would have gone to the Yonge Rapidway(s) and maybe some local/arterial routes?

 

[minilude]

Yet Metrolinx doesn't even plan to connect the Barrie Line to VIVA Yellow? lol

 

[Megaton327]

Yet Metrolinx doesn't even plan to connect the Barrie Line to VIVA Yellow? lol

It is connected. Newmarket GO station is about a 1 minute walk from the Main St Vivastation. For comparison, the Line 1 subway is a substantially longer walk from the train platforms at Union.

I think this has been brought up before, but why was the Davis Drive Viva Yellow Rapidway built so early and without demand. IIRC, Davis Drive only had a few YRT routes prior to the construction of the Rapidway and had NO VIVA SERVICE.

I understand that Yonge/Davis Drive is a UGC for "Downtown Newmarket", but why would they build out a full blown (not even to 404 thankfully) BRT even though they didn't even have On-Street Viva Service with Curbside stations to see if ridership warrants BRT?

If the Davis Drive Rapidway wasn't built, but instead Viva Yellow only was added, then would it be safe to say that the cost would have gone to the Yonge Rapidway(s) and maybe some local/arterial routes?

It was built to provide capacity for future demand. Obviously this is a generally logical policy, it's much better to build transit early and have it sit underused for a few years, rather than wait until the area is crushed with tons of residents without transit service and start the long planning, design, EA, and construction process years after it's needed.

However, it was taken way too far with Davis. That area is unlikely to need BRT for at least 20 years, probably 30-40. You're absolutely right that regular Viva service should have been implemented first--this was a huge jump in service level in an area with little service. The money could have been much better spent improving local service and adding Viva, then using the rest to improve YRT service and build rapidways elsewhere. The Highway 7 rapidway in Markham is a much better example of overbuilding infrastructure ahead of time--it has relatively low-frequency service and somewhat small ridership, but even since it's opened it's gotten much busier with all of the new condos, and as more people move into the area they have room to increase service and eventually upgrade to LRT; it's not nearly as devoid of buses or ridership as Davis is.

 

[minilude]

It is connected. Newmarket GO station is about a 1 minute walk from the Main St Vivastation. For comparison, the Line 1 subway is a substantially longer walk from the train platforms at Union.

I mean the proposed all-day-two-way routes, it stops at Aurora.

 

[amnesiajune]

I think that's the key, here--how many people live within comfortable walking distance of the Highway 7 or Yonge rapidways? Many, to be sure, that's largely why they built them, but there are so many people a short local bus ride away, if only the local buses were to provide good service.

Those rapidways aren't meant to be a "spine" like Toronto's subway system, being fed by local buses from all over. They're supposed to create corridors where you can live and work car-free. People in those corridors (Yonge, Highway 7, Bathurst, Centre Street, Bayview, etc.) would be within walking distance of a stop.

Along the same lines, my much bigger concern is for 15-minute RER in Markham, Vaughan, and Aurora. The lots at Rutherford and Maple even with the new garages, and in Aurora already, are full by about the second last morning rush hour southbound train, there's simply no room for midday riders. We need local bus service, if not every 15 minutes then every half hour, to provide people an option to use RER without having to park at the station.

Those stations already have that kind of service! The Rutherford and Major Mackenzie buses run every 10-15 minutes during rush hour and every 20-25 minutes off-peak (a bit less frequent for Rutherford on Sundays). People have transit options, but choose to drive anyways. Again, this is York Region. People choose to live in York Region because they want to be able to drive everywhere without having to deal with traffic. You can give them the best public transit in the world and they'll still drive everywhere.

If the Davis Drive Rapidway wasn't built, but instead Viva Yellow only was added, then would it be safe to say that the cost would have gone to the Yonge Rapidway(s) and maybe some local/arterial routes?

The Yonge Rapidways are being built right now. They're scheduled to open at the end of 2018.

Yet Metrolinx doesn't even plan to connect the Barrie Line to VIVA Yellow?

It's connected at the Main Street station, 100 meters up the road from the Go Train platform.

 

[Leo_Chan]

The Yonge Rapidways are being built right now. They're scheduled to open at the end of 2018.

I know they're being built right now, but if Davis Drive wasn't built, Yonge would have came right after Highway 7 East, rather than being 4th (Hwy7WE, Davis, Hwy7W, Yonge). Also, the Rapidway may have also had funding to connect the Newmarket and Richmond Hill sections of the Yonge Rapidway, right now there's an 14 km gap of "unfunded Rapidway".

 

[Megaton327]

Those stations already have that kind of service! The Rutherford and Major Mackenzie buses run every 10-15 minutes during rush hour and every 20-25 minutes off-peak (a bit less frequent for Rutherford on Sundays). People have transit options, but choose to drive anyways. Again, this is York Region. People choose to live in York Region because they want to be able to drive everywhere without having to deal with traffic. You can give them the best public transit in the world and they'll still drive everywhere.

Thanks, yet again, for telling me why I live in York Region. I greatly appreciate it, since you obviously know better than me why I live where I live. What would I ever do without you thinking for me.

In fact, I live in York Region because houses are more expensive in Toronto, and even here in York Region I'd actually much rather take public transit if I had the "best public transit in the world". But, as it happens, yes, right now I prefer to drive. I prefer to be able to get home from the GO station 20-30 minutes faster daily. I prefer to be able to take the last PM peak GO train home and not have to walk or take a taxi because the bus stopped running. I prefer being able to go anywhere on weekends when the YRT doesn't run. I prefer being able to catch the last morning GO train southbound, and not take an extra 2 hours to get downtown if my YRT bus is delayed and I miss the final train and have to take a bus down the DVP instead. I prefer being able to take midday GO buses southbound and not have to wait for the hourly YRT bus to come and then worry about a 20-30 minute wait since it isn't timed to meet the GO bus. I prefer stopping for groceries on my way to or from GO and not having to wait another hour for the next bus.

I don't, however, prefer hunting for parking spaces. I don't prefer using a parking space, and in fact I don't prefer driving at all. If YRT were to start running decent service (and preferably with electric buses--as an electric car driver, it's unfortunate to have most public transit spew diesel exhaust) I'd happily switch to it.

 

[amnesiajune]

I know they're being built right now, but if Davis Drive wasn't built, Yonge would have came right after Highway 7 East, rather than being 4th (Hwy7WE, Davis, Hwy7W, Yonge).

Yonge probably would've still had to wait for Highway 7 west to finish, just like the remaining parts of Highway 7 West need to wait for Yonge to finish before they can start construction.

Also, the Rapidway may have also had funding to connect the Newmarket and Richmond Hill sections of the Yonge Rapidway, right now there's an 14 km gap of "unfunded Rapidway".

There's no point in connecting them for now. There isn't really any traffic on Yonge between 19th and Newmarket.

 

[amnesiajune]

In fact, I live in York Region because houses are more expensive in Toronto, and even here in York Region I'd actually much rather take public transit if I had the "best public transit in the world".

How are you unaware of the level of service that YRT provides if you live in York Region?

I prefer to be able to take the last PM peak GO train home and not have to walk or take a taxi because the bus stopped running.

As a York Region resident, how are you unaware that every Go Train station in York Region except Gormley (in the middle of nowhere) has bus service until at least 9:30 PM, and all but Gormley, King City and East Gwillimbury have bus service until midnight?

Anyways, you may have different motives, but you're in the extreme minority. You're also in the extreme minority if you found a home away from Yonge or Highway 7 that's cheaper than living Scarborough or Etobicoke.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I think there's agreement that tefe) there is no point of YR building a tremendous spine of subway and BRT if they're not properly supplying local service.

I'm not worried about the immediate corridors but it would certainly be great to keep those fancy cars out of the new Langstaff lot by making sure it's efficient and easy to reach all this rapid transit.

I think that's the key, here--how many people live within comfortable walking distance of the Highway 7 or Yonge rapidways? Many, to be sure, that's largely why they built them, but there are so many people a short local bus ride away, if only the local buses were to provide good service.

Along the same lines, my much bigger concern is for 15-minute RER in Markham, Vaughan, and Aurora. The lots at Rutherford and Maple even with the new garages, and in Aurora already, are full by about the second last morning rush hour southbound train, there's simply no room for midday riders. We need local bus service, if not every 15 minutes then every half hour, to provide people an option to use RER without having to park at the station. My biggest complaint about YRT is the fact that my local route is a poor quality GO connection due to an infrequent/non-weekend/non-evening schedule and unreliability, that needs to change.

I think this has been brought up before, but why was the Davis Drive Viva Yellow Rapidway built so early and without demand. IIRC, Davis Drive only had a few YRT routes prior to the construction of the Rapidway and had NO VIVA SERVICE.

I understand that Yonge/Davis Drive is a UGC for "Downtown Newmarket", but why would they build out a full blown (not even to 404 thankfully) BRT even though they didn't even have On-Street Viva Service with Curbside stations to see if ridership warrants BRT?

If the Davis Drive Rapidway wasn't built, but instead Viva Yellow only was added, then would it be safe to say that the cost would have gone to the Yonge Rapidway(s) and maybe some local/arterial routes?

Yet Metrolinx doesn't even plan to connect the Barrie Line to VIVA Yellow? lol

It is connected. Newmarket GO station is about a 1 minute walk from the Main St Vivastation. For comparison, the Line 1 subway is a substantially longer walk from the train platforms at Union.



It was built to provide capacity for future demand. Obviously this is a generally logical policy, it's much better to build transit early and have it sit underused for a few years, rather than wait until the area is crushed with tons of residents without transit service and start the long planning, design, EA, and construction process years after it's needed.

However, it was taken way too far with Davis. That area is unlikely to need BRT for at least 20 years, probably 30-40. You're absolutely right that regular Viva service should have been implemented first--this was a huge jump in service level in an area with little service. The money could have been much better spent improving local service and adding Viva, then using the rest to improve YRT service and build rapidways elsewhere. The Highway 7 rapidway in Markham is a much better example of overbuilding infrastructure ahead of time--it has relatively low-frequency service and somewhat small ridership, but even since it's opened it's gotten much busier with all of the new condos, and as more people move into the area they have room to increase service and eventually upgrade to LRT; it's not nearly as devoid of buses or ridership as Davis is.

I mean the proposed all-day-two-way routes, it stops at Aurora.

I know they're being built right now, but if Davis Drive wasn't built, Yonge would have came right after Highway 7 East, rather than being 4th (Hwy7WE, Davis, Hwy7W, Yonge). Also, the Rapidway may have also had funding to connect the Newmarket and Richmond Hill sections of the Yonge Rapidway, right now there's an 14 km gap of "unfunded Rapidway".

Thanks, yet again, for telling me why I live in York Region. I greatly appreciate it, since you obviously know better than me why I live where I live. What would I ever do without you thinking for me.

In fact, I live in York Region because houses are more expensive in Toronto, and even here in York Region I'd actually much rather take public transit if I had the "best public transit in the world". But, as it happens, yes, right now I prefer to drive. I prefer to be able to get home from the GO station 20-30 minutes faster daily. I prefer to be able to take the last PM peak GO train home and not have to walk or take a taxi because the bus stopped running. I prefer being able to go anywhere on weekends when the YRT doesn't run. I prefer being able to catch the last morning GO train southbound, and not take an extra 2 hours to get downtown if my YRT bus is delayed and I miss the final train and have to take a bus down the DVP instead. I prefer being able to take midday GO buses southbound and not have to wait for the hourly YRT bus to come and then worry about a 20-30 minute wait since it isn't timed to meet the GO bus. I prefer stopping for groceries on my way to or from GO and not having to wait another hour for the next bus.

I don't, however, prefer hunting for parking spaces. I don't prefer using a parking space, and in fact I don't prefer driving at all. If YRT were to start running decent service (and preferably with electric buses--as an electric car driver, it's unfortunate to have most public transit spew diesel exhaust) I'd happily switch to it.

I agree with all of this. I mean look here: https://www.yrt.ca/en/schedules-and-maps/resources/25.pdf No weekend service. 1 hr during midday. This is Route 25, Major Mac in Markham. How do students get home in the middle of day? What about late night workers? This is not making any kind of an effort to help people get around. And Davis was obviously a waste of money, could have gone to Newmarket-Aurora local service, unless they bring the RER to Newmarket which I don't think is likely even though it should be a priority. It's ridiculous. If Langstaff is just another Finch, you haven't changed anything.

Those rapidways aren't meant to be a "spine" like Toronto's subway system, being fed by local buses from all over. They're supposed to create corridors where you can live and work car-free. People in those corridors (Yonge, Highway 7, Bathurst, Centre Street, Bayview, etc.) would be within walking distance of a stop.



Those stations already have that kind of service! The Rutherford and Major Mackenzie buses run every 10-15 minutes during rush hour and every 20-25 minutes off-peak (a bit less frequent for Rutherford on Sundays). People have transit options, but choose to drive anyways. Again, this is York Region. People choose to live in York Region because they want to be able to drive everywhere without having to deal with traffic. You can give them the best public transit in the world and they'll still drive everywhere.



The Yonge Rapidways are being built right now. They're scheduled to open at the end of 2018.



It's connected at the Main Street station, 100 meters up the road from the Go Train platform.

And again, some people in Burlington and Oshawa are the same, some prefer the car, but if they don't want to take their cars, they don't have. Not the same with YR. Major Mackenzie only runs with frequency up to warden as I just showed.

How are you unaware of the level of service that YRT provides if you live in York Region?



As a York Region resident, how are you unaware that every Go Train station in York Region except Gormley (in the middle of nowhere) has bus service until at least 9:30 PM, and all but Gormley, King City and East Gwillimbury have bus service until midnight?

Anyways, you may have different motives, but you're in the extreme minority. You're also in the extreme minority if you found a home away from Yonge or Highway 7 that's cheaper than living Scarborough or Etobicoke.

Yonge probably would've still had to wait for Highway 7 west to finish, just like the remaining parts of Highway 7 West need to wait for Yonge to finish before they can start construction.



There's no point in connecting them for now. There isn't really any traffic on Yonge between 19th and Newmarket.

But you don't live there so how would you know. 85 and 4 are major artery's and are two of the rare examples of sunday service. What about Buroak : https://www.yrt.ca/en/schedules-and-maps/resources/18.pdf runs by Mt Joy: Until 8:30 on weekdays and 6pm(!!!) on Saturdays, no sunday service. This route would have service until 7:30 in Burlington.

 

[Megaton327]

How are you unaware of the level of service that YRT provides if you live in York Region?



As a York Region resident, how are you unaware that every Go Train station in York Region except Gormley (in the middle of nowhere) has bus service until at least 9:30 PM, and all but Gormley, King City and East Gwillimbury have bus service until midnight?

Anyways, you may have different motives, but you're in the extreme minority.

I'm very aware of the level of service YRT provides. It's quite poor.

And I'm aware that my local bus route at my local GO station stops weekday service around 7:00 PM, while the last GO train arrives at 7:30 PM. Bus service on my route certainly does not go to 9:30 PM. I'm not sure where you're getting that idea, but since I live here and actually use the bus rather than guessing randomly on the internet, I assure you that I actually know what I'm talking about.

Here, once and for all, so that you can stop repeating fake news, I'll just post the schedule for my bus route: https://www.yrt.ca/en/schedules-and-maps/resources/32.pdf what a shock! Service ends around 7 from the GO station and doesn't go until 9:30 or midnight! Who could possibly have guessed that based on what I was saying?

You're also in the extreme minority if you found a home away from Yonge or Highway 7 that's cheaper than living Scarborough or Etobicoke.

Good one. Find me a 2400sqft detached 4-bedroom 2-garage house in Scarborough or Etobicoke for under $1M that doesn't have bullet holes. I'll wait.

 

[ShonTron]

@amnesiajune - consider yourself warned. Your last post here was without fact, and instead went against the fellow UT member. It's not uncommon behaviour for you either.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I'm very aware of the level of service YRT provides. It's quite poor.

And I'm aware that my local bus route at my local GO station stops weekday service around 7:00 PM, while the last GO train arrives at 7:30 PM. Bus service on my route certainly does not go to 9:30 PM. I'm not sure where you're getting that idea, but since I live here and actually use the bus rather than guessing randomly on the internet, I assure you that I actually know what I'm talking about.

Here, once and for all, so that you can stop repeating fake news, I'll just post the schedule for my bus route: https://www.yrt.ca/en/schedules-and-maps/resources/32.pdf what a shock! Service ends around 7 from the GO station and doesn't go until 9:30 or midnight! Who could possibly have guessed that based on what I was saying?



Good one. Find me a 2400sqft detached 4-bedroom 2-garage house in Scarborough or Etobicoke for under $1M that doesn't have bullet holes. I'll wait.

Thank you. This is the problem. Aurora south should a) that route should have 15 min frequency b) should be running until midnight on weekdays. Here's a similar route in Burlington - http://www.burlingtontransit.ca/en/schedules-and-maps/resources/Route_Maps/11-August-2016.pdf 10:30 on weekdays and 8:20 (!) on Sundays. If you had kids, and no money for a third car (which is most of the GTA save a few), where you you move if leaving Toronto?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I think this has been brought up before, but why was the Davis Drive Viva Yellow Rapidway built so early and without demand. IIRC, Davis Drive only had a few YRT routes prior to the construction of the Rapidway and had NO VIVA SERVICE.

I understand that Yonge/Davis Drive is a UGC for "Downtown Newmarket", but why would they build out a full blown (not even to 404 thankfully) BRT even though they didn't even have On-Street Viva Service with Curbside stations to see if ridership warrants BRT?

If the Davis Drive Rapidway wasn't built, but instead Viva Yellow only was added, then would it be safe to say that the cost would have gone to the Yonge Rapidway(s) and maybe some local/arterial routes?

I know I'm a few hours behind and this has been answered before anyway...

-The most superficial answer is political. YR got over $2B for Viva and they couldn't spend it all in the south to start. Just imagine in Toronto is there was some far-flung corner upset how everyone else had rapid transit and argued they "deserved" it too

-Second, it was capital money from the province so, no, it couldn't go to local arterial routes. In theory it could have gone to Yonge but where? People forget that the FIRST phase was going to be Yonge south of 7. So there wasn't any money taken away from Yonge.

-Davis was a terrible street with terrible traffic. It's also ugly as sin. Viva doesn't only provide a link to the UGC - which is to say a place the province requires them to heavily intensify from what is now largely car dealerships and crap plazas between now and 2031 - but also to what they hope will be something of an employment node around the hospital.

-You're right about the UGC but I think it still misses the point: Viva is only partly about ridership. It's largely (mostly, I'd argue) about urbanization. I don't think it's decades ahead at all. It's bringing "complete streets" and "complete communities," to a relatively far-flung suburb.It's planting a seed.

Did people ride the bus so much they needed a higher mode? No.
Do people ride the bus enough to justify it today? No.
Do people use the bike lanes enough to justify it today? No.

Is it the start of a fundamental shift in the built form in the heart of Newmarket? Yes.
Does the street look better and work better? Yes.
Can you build a UGC by 2031 and add a BRT 30 or 40 years later? I don't think so.

It may seem silly to suggest ridership of such prominent infrastructure is secondary but I think it all makes a lot more sense and seems a lot less premature if you wrap your head around what the actual intent is.

 

[Leo_Chan]

I know I'm a few hours behind and this has been answered before anyway...

-The most superficial answer is political. YR got over $2B for Viva and they couldn't spend it all in the south to start. Just imagine in Toronto is there was some far-flung corner upset how everyone else had rapid transit and argued they "deserved" it too

-Second, it was capital money from the province so, no, it couldn't go to local arterial routes. In theory it could have gone to Yonge but where? People forget that the FIRST phase was going to be Yonge south of 7. So there wasn't any money taken away from Yonge.

-Davis was a terrible street with terrible traffic. It's also ugly as sin. Viva doesn't only provide a link to the UGC - which is to say a place the province requires them to heavily intensify from what is now largely car dealerships and crap plazas between now and 2031 - but also to what they hope will be something of an employment node around the hospital.

-You're right about the UGC but I think it still misses the point: Viva is only partly about ridership. It's largely (mostly, I'd argue) about urbanization. I don't think it's decades ahead at all. It's bringing "complete streets" and "complete communities," to a relatively far-flung suburb.It's planting a seed.

Did people ride the bus so much they needed a higher mode? No.
Do people ride the bus enough to justify it today? No.
Do people use the bike lanes enough to justify it today? No.

Is it the start of a fundamental shift in the built form in the heart of Newmarket? Yes.
Does the street look better and work better? Yes.
Can you build a UGC by 2031 and add a BRT 30 or 40 years later? I don't think so.

It may seem silly to suggest ridership of such prominent infrastructure is secondary but I think it all makes a lot more sense and seems a lot less premature if you wrap your head around what the actual intent is.

You bring up many great facts and examples that support the Davis Drive Rapidway being built. You also mentioned that the infrastructure has to be there before condos and office towers get built, but you're missing one crucial part: the actual new buildings. Unless there are plans I don't know about, there aren't any proposals for any large (or even new) buildings along Davis Drive or just south of it on Yonge.

IMO, the Davis Drive Rapidway should have been constructed after all the first phase (as I call it) Viva Projects, including Hwy 7 from Helen to Unionville/Kennedy, Yonge from Hwy 7 to Davis Drive, and the Viva Curbside Stations on Jane/Major Mack/Leslie/Don Mills from VMC to Don Mills Station. I would estimate that the Davis Drive Rapidway would have opened by 2020, which is the completion date of the currently funded vivaNext projects. Then the unfunded parts of the vivaNext plan can happen as Phase 2 (as I call it): Hwy 7 from Unionville GO to Cornell, Hwy 7 from Helen to Hwy 50, Yonge connecting the two sections, and other things.

I understand northern York Region feels left out on the whole vivaNext plans, but the reality is that there's no ridership (except Yonge) there and that's the fact.