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Yonge Street, North York Streetscape Improvements

But why should “Toronto” be what it is today? What’s democratic about aggregating the inner core with radically different suburbs in one political entity? Why aren’t Brampton, Mississauga and Pickering also part on Toronto?

This project on Yonge would've been under Metro's domain. Amalgamation made no difference in that regard. The individual cities really only controlled a handful of local issues, and many of those are still largely left up to community councils or the local councillor.
 
To complicate the matter:
Thinking a bigger picture than what's in their wards
- Support bike lanes on Yonge because it will make NYCC a destination for the region
- Support keeping Yonge as 6-lanes because the road serves more than a local function

Ward-centric thinking
- Support bike lanes on Yonge because it will also reduce number of traffic lanes and thus makes for a quieter street for locals to enjoy
- Support keeping Yonge as 6-lanes to keep traffic away from the primarily residential ring roads, and to avoid a 1-2 minute increase in traffic time (according to a report)

Who's "right" and who's "wrong"?

Fair points. But again, that's why the city pays people to perform objective analyses. They are bound to assess all those things and listen to input and make a recommendation that achieves the "greatest good."

You can have local councillors debate what they think the network implications etc are (or, say, listen to Scarborough residents who imagine how long the subway will make their commute) but staff's job is to take a step back and offer those answers. Doesn't mean they're always right but when it comes to the OMB, for example, most of the time they overrule a council decision it's because council ignore staff. Something to ponder.
 
Here's something to ponder,.... first, never ever assume City Staff are honest and place City's best interest first,.... if you connect the dot between CityStaff false "Traffic Model" and why they padded the Centre Median to 4.5m even though existing Centre Median is 3.0m (remember project objective was to maximize pedestrian sidewalk space!),.... you'll see that Councillor Shiner's Enhance Yonge and Transform Beecroft is actually serving the greater good,... for Ward 23 and his Ward 24, Willowdale and the City,...

I already proved CityStaff's Traffic Model using 0.6% annual increase to justify lane reduction was full of crap,.... since traffic in area and from 905 increase at around 3% annually
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...scape-improvements.25913/page-24#post-1311431

Why CentreMedian is 3.0m south of Sheppard but 4.5m north; even though existing CentreMedian is 3.0m!
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...scape-improvements.25913/page-23#post-1310819
 
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The Public Works Committee at City Hall wants want-to-be-expressways on Yonge Street...

See link.

Matt Elliott: Main streets should not be highways
City council's decision on Yonge Street should be guided by uncompromised principles: this is a neighbourhood main street. Main streets are for people.

Imagine your local government decided to take your neighbourhood main street and make it worse.

Imagine they proposed adding traffic lanes and narrowing sidewalks, all in the name of making sure cars can always go fast.

Imagine they wanted to replace restaurant patios with parking spaces and safe bike lanes with painted arrows intended to remind drivers — please, if it’s not too much trouble — not to run people over.

People would freak out.

So I’m having trouble understanding why it continues to be such a challenge to make the opposite happen. Why is it that when local planners propose taking a street that is lacking in urban amenities and making it better, so many people say no?

The latest example of this is playing out in North York, along Yonge Street between Sheppard Avenue and Finch Avenue, where staff have brought forward a plan to reimagine the street.

In a lot of ways, the plan is the culmination of a vision first expressed by former mayor Mel Lastman decades ago. He wanted North York to have a downtown all of its own. And after much political wrangling, it actually started to happen. It got a subway station. It got retailers and office buildings. It got density.

But it never got the final piece. This part of Yonge has not been reconstructed since 1975. The road is too wide at six lanes and the sidewalks are too narrow.

As a result, the street is unfriendly — it can feel like a highway — and dangerous. Between 2010 and 2017, the city recorded 78 collisions involving pedestrians and five involving cyclists.

And so Toronto’s urban planners did what they do best. They designed a plan to give North York’s downtown a downtown street. A safer street. A better street...

story-324263-441622-image-rendered.jpg.size.xxlarge.letterbox.jpg

Eduardo Lima / Metro
A plan to transform Yonge between Sheppard and Finch, and make it more bike and pedestrian friendly with bike lanes, was nixed by the public works committee last week.
 
Here's something to ponder,.... first, never ever assume City Staff are honest and place City's best interest first,.... if you connect the dot between CityStaff false "Traffic Model" and why they padded the Centre Median to 4.5m even though existing Centre Median is 3.0m (remember project objective was to maximize pedestrian sidewalk space!),.... you'll see that Councillor Shiner's Enhance Yonge and Transform Beecroft is actually serving the greater good,... for Ward 23 and his Ward 24, Willowdale and the City,...

I already proved CityStaff's Traffic Model using 0.6% annual increase to justify lane reduction was full of crap,.... since traffic in area and from 905 increase at around 3% annually
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...scape-improvements.25913/page-24#post-1311431

Why CentreMedian is 3.0m south of Sheppard but 4.5m north; even though existing CentreMedian is 3.0m!
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...scape-improvements.25913/page-23#post-1310819

Of course everyone has their own individual biases and opinions, but if you're asking me who has the City's best interests at heart I trust City staff more than Councillors. I think some other posters (including yourself) have provided ample evidence of Councillors self-serving interests over staff.

Regarding sidewalk space, the project was more than just widths. It's about providing a complete environment and reshaping the neighborhood to serve the people who live there. And even that serves the greater good by serving as a model to reduce car dependency.

It'd be nice for Councillors to acknowledge that the lives of people who live and walk through that neighborhood are more valuable than a couple minutes of extra travel time.

It's sad to think that in some minds 'the greater good' should ever be used as an argument for mere minutes of driving time versus even just one human life.
 
Of course everyone has their own individual biases and opinions, but if you're asking me who has the City's best interests at heart I trust City staff more than Councillors. I think some other posters (including yourself) have provided ample evidence of Councillors self-serving interests over staff.

I don't think city councillors are any more malicious than city staff, but they both have their own biases that affect how they see issues. City planning staff are going to be left-leaning, more likely to live in the core, unlikely to drive as often as most people in Toronto, and they're more likely to be into political activism and ask for huge changes. City councillors are generally older, almost all white, much wealthier than most people, and generally skew a bit towards right wing politics. They'll often come to a different conclusion than city staff, partly because of their different background, but they're all promoting what they think is best for the city.
 
I don't think city councillors are any more malicious than city staff, but they both have their own biases that affect how they see issues. City planning staff are going to be left-leaning, more likely to live in the core, unlikely to drive as often as most people in Toronto, and they're more likely to be into political activism and ask for huge changes. City councillors are generally older, almost all white, much wealthier than most people, and generally skew a bit towards right wing politics. They'll often come to a different conclusion than city staff, partly because of their different background, but they're all promoting what they think is best for the city.

The city staff are the ones who have more expertise, though, and consult with residents and other stakeholders. A staff report might have some of those biases you assume, but they're the product of professional expertise, public consultations, and adherence to city policy. Politicians set the policy that the staff work within, but then the politicians can still reject the end result.
 
Of course everyone has their own individual biases and opinions, but if you're asking me who has the City's best interests at heart I trust City staff more than Councillors. I think some other posters (including yourself) have provided ample evidence of Councillors self-serving interests over staff.

Regarding sidewalk space, the project was more than just widths. It's about providing a complete environment and reshaping the neighborhood to serve the people who live there. And even that serves the greater good by serving as a model to reduce car dependency.

It'd be nice for Councillors to acknowledge that the lives of people who live and walk through that neighborhood are more valuable than a couple minutes of extra travel time.

It's sad to think that in some minds 'the greater good' should ever be used as an argument for mere minutes of driving time versus even just one human life.


Unless we're talking about Harbourfront where people generally try to avoid driving into the lake,... throughout the City about 50% of traffic on all major arterial roads are from outside the area,.... and its closer to 70-75% for any major arterial roads near highway 401 - its not just Yonge Street.

As I previously already demonstrated, Cyclist are many folds safer on long continuous open greenspace on West-Side of Beecroft VS Yonge - mainly due to 6-10 times less cyclist-vehicle conflict points along with much better sight lines!
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...scape-improvements.25913/page-12#post-1251574
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...scape-improvements.25913/page-12#post-1251575
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...scape-improvements.25913/page-12#post-1264142

If CityStaff really cared about Cyclist safety they would have proposed off-road multi-use trail along west-side of Beecroft - really tough for cyclist and car to get into collision on an off-road multi-use trail where there's no cars!!!

You see about 10 times more Cyclist cycling on west-side of Beecroft VS Yonge.


Why CityStaff recommended CycleTracks on Yonge? This isn't about cyclist safety. It's about MinimumGrid,... but MinimumGrid isn't a policy adopted by Mayor or CityCouncil; yet it sneaks its way into City Planning's Complete Streets guideline and Transportation Services' Major Corridor Study. That's why you're seeing all the special interest groups from outside the area pushing for it!


BTW, since no-one have spotted what's wrong with "Transform Yonge" solution (CityStaff hiding something! - Shiner's "Enhanced Yonge" *should* fix it),.... maybe a fan of Complete Streets guidelines should try spotting what's wrong with "Transform Beecroft"
(fixable but require slightly different design).
https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/u...Beecroft_Stage-2_4L-2017-12-11-compressed.pdf
 
There's no point in having bicycle infrastructure if no one is going to use it. I live on Yonge downtown and used to work on Yonge in North York. I used to bike it every morning and stayed on Yonge even though Doris was less busy because why should I divert when my origin and destination are on Yonge? Bike lanes being on Beecroft wouldn't change anything for me.
 
Unless we're talking about Harbourfront where people generally try to avoid driving into the lake,... throughout the City about 50% of traffic on all major arterial roads are from outside the area,.... and its closer to 70-75% for any major arterial roads near highway 401 - its not just Yonge Street.

As I previously already demonstrated, Cyclist are many folds safer on long continuous open greenspace on West-Side of Beecroft VS Yonge - mainly due to 6-10 times less cyclist-vehicle conflict points along with much better sight lines!
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...scape-improvements.25913/page-12#post-1251574
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...scape-improvements.25913/page-12#post-1251575
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...scape-improvements.25913/page-12#post-1264142

If CityStaff really cared about Cyclist safety they would have proposed off-road multi-use trail along west-side of Beecroft - really tough for cyclist and car to get into collision on an off-road multi-use trail where there's no cars!!!

You see about 10 times more Cyclist cycling on west-side of Beecroft VS Yonge.


Why CityStaff recommended CycleTracks on Yonge? This isn't about cyclist safety. It's about MinimumGrid,... but MinimumGrid isn't a policy adopted by Mayor or CityCouncil; yet it sneaks its way into City Planning's Complete Streets guideline and Transportation Services' Major Corridor Study. That's why you're seeing all the special interest groups from outside the area pushing for it!


BTW, since no-one have spotted what's wrong with "Transform Yonge" solution (CityStaff hiding something! - Shiner's "Enhanced Yonge" *should* fix it),.... maybe a fan of Complete Streets guidelines should try spotting what's wrong with "Transform Beecroft"
(fixable but require slightly different design).
https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/u...Beecroft_Stage-2_4L-2017-12-11-compressed.pdf

You write almost entirely about cyclists here, but I'm interested in the potential for lane reduction. Having the bicycle lanes means two less traffic lanes. That improves the streetscape for almost everyone - everyone except drivers - and even they are only minimally negatively affected.

Cycling is the chum that's making the sharks circle.
 
You write almost entirely about cyclists here, but I'm interested in the potential for lane reduction. Having the bicycle lanes means two less traffic lanes. That improves the streetscape for almost everyone - everyone except drivers - and even they are only minimally negatively affected.

Cycling is the chum that's making the sharks circle.

Nope,... a CycleTrack is still a lane,.....

As you can see, for Councillor Filion's "Transform Yonge" option,..... the introduction of CycleTracks on Yonge at Sheppard and southward doesn't improve streetscape since MTO insist on 6 lanes here,... so 3m CycleTracks (with buffers) eat up 1m gain from lane narrowing and 2m of existing sidewalk space on each side of Yonge Street,.... increasing pedestrian crossing distance from 7 lanes to 9 lanes,.... as for "improve streetscape" - template doesn't have room for tree-lined curb! Based on distribution of high-density development in NorthYorkCentre, this would negatively impact 1/3 of locals!
IMG_1039aGOOD2.jpg


When you look at it from a network perspective, 2/3 of southbound Yonge St traffic end up on 401 - they won't convert to cycling or TTC. For the 1/3 that continue south of 401 on Yonge St, say only 10% of folks can cycle those valley hills and 10% destination at Lawrence or Eglinton (4-6km from Yonge/Sheppard which is upper end of 1-5km sweet-spot Cycling distance); so that means 1/100 of those Yonge St SB drivers south of 401 is capable of switching to cycling,.... the other 99/100 who quit driving will be on already overcapacity Yonge Subway line!

North of Sheppard, there's only 1.45m of sidewalk width gain (and 30cm goes to fatter street furnishing) after CityStaff stole .75m to pad CentreMedian. Also, redevelopment (70% of Yonge in North York Centre Secondary Plan area) has 4m amenity zone outside City Right-Of-Way not illustrated above,....

Councillor Shiner's "Enhanced Yonge" solution *should* deliver 1m sidewalk width gain for each side throughout Yonge St Corridor in North York with uniform tree-lined curb on every block from Florence/Avondale to Hendon/Bishop (Finch Hydro Corridor).
 

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When motorists see bicyclists, they don't see the people. When they see cars, they also don't see the people, they see all the shiny metal and glass using up all the real estate.

From link.

In 1991, a photographer commissioned by the City of Münster’s planning department took a series of photographs for a three-panelled poster that showed the space required to transport 72 people by either car, bus or bicycle. Taken on Prinzipalmarkt, Münster’s High Street, the transportation triptych has since become iconic and is often wheeled out as the main representation of how single-occupancy cars take up a disproportionate amount of road space.

7999178447_e3e87542fe_o.jpg


CanberraTransportPhoto.jpg

 
BTW, since no-one have spotted what's wrong with "Transform Yonge" solution (CityStaff hiding something! - Shiner's "Enhanced Yonge" *should* fix it),.... maybe a fan of Complete Streets guidelines should try spotting what's wrong with "Transform Beecroft"
(fixable but require slightly different design).
https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/u...Beecroft_Stage-2_4L-2017-12-11-compressed.pdf

I'm guessing that you're referring to the fact that the bike lanes on Beecroft aren't bidirectional on the west side so they have to deal with unnecessary intersections:
upload_2018-3-6_14-19-57.png


Which, as you've pointed out previously, is disappointing because it means that there are many more potential conflict points and much more stopping required for cyclists than if they had a side-of-the-road configuration
yongecorridornyc3dt_good_orangegreenred_measure-jpg.119135


As a cyclist, I have to agree that I would much prefer cycling along routes that do not intersect with road traffic. I've been hooked before, twice, while in curb-separated bike lanes in a central road (de Maisonneuve boulevard), and there is much more conflict even between other cyclists when we bunch up at intersections.

I would prefer bike lanes on Yonge for a traffic-calming and street-improvement perspective, but if they are going to go ahead with Beecroft instead of Yonge, they might as well do it right.

All of the curb-separated bike lanes in Montreal are bi-direction, usually hugging the side of the road with more greenspace and fewer intersections (e.g. Côte St. Catherine hugs Mount Royal, more residential side). But there aren't many examples of roads where there is such a drastic difference in intersection density between east and west as Beecroft.
 

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I'm guessing that you're referring to the fact that the bike lanes on Beecroft aren't bidirectional on the west side so they have to deal with unnecessary intersections:
View attachment 136490

Which, as you've pointed out previously, is disappointing because it means that there are many more potential conflict points and much more stopping required for cyclists than if they had a side-of-the-road configuration
yongecorridornyc3dt_good_orangegreenred_measure-jpg.119135


As a cyclist, I have to agree that I would much prefer cycling along routes that do not intersect with road traffic. I've been hooked before, twice, while in curb-separated bike lanes in a central road (de Maisonneuve boulevard), and there is much more conflict even between other cyclists when we bunch up at intersections.

I would prefer bike lanes on Yonge for a traffic-calming and street-improvement perspective, but if they are going to go ahead with Beecroft instead of Yonge, they might as well do it right.

All of the curb-separated bike lanes in Montreal are bi-direction, usually hugging the side of the road with more greenspace and fewer intersections (e.g. Côte St. Catherine hugs Mount Royal, more residential side). But there aren't many examples of roads where there is such a drastic difference in intersection density between east and west as Beecroft.


AquaTeam, yes, that of course is my main beef against the Uni-Directional CycleTrack design for "Transform Beecroft". CityStaff might have been tempted to present a Uni-Directional CycleTrack crap job on "Transform Beecroft" to help make "Transform Yonge" look better! Thanks for the Montreal reference, I'll check them out!

Here in the narrower City Right-Of-Way on Beecroft Road between Sheppard Ave and ParkHome Ave,... there's a violation of Toronto Complete Streets Guideline,... Can anyone spot it??? The easiest and cheapest fix (anyone figure out how?),... might actually force CityStaff to change to Bi-Directional CycleTracks along west-side of Beecroft where it's long & continuous with minimal cyclist-vehicle conflict points.
IMG_2376_100.jpg


My understanding is the Bi-Directional CycleTracks version was also developed internally but never presented; thus, now at 30% engineering - it's now or never. Problem is the local Councillor is,....it'll be better and safer for his ward,... but the local Councillor is,.... arghhhh!!!
 

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A lot of the talk on the proposal relates to sidewalk widening. I agree parts of this stretch of Yonge has narrow sidewalks, but IMO for the most part the sidewalks are plenty wide. Many parts are just as wide if not wider than Yonge-Lawrence or Yonge-Davisville.

The real issue that impacts pedestrian experience seems to be speed of car travel, volume of cars and related noise, and the biggest issue is crossing the street. So why is that not being discussed more? The discussion should include more crossings, lowering speed limits, limiting or removing rights on reds, taking away those dedicated right turn lanes, and having raised crossings. That would greatly improve pedestrian experience and diminish car experience whether lanes are removed or not.

Granted I have no direct experience in politics, I'm just a casual observer. But it seems like Filion invested all of his capital on this project in a very divisive issue that is a hard sell (bike lanes) and may have been more successful in making this more of a main street if he focused on pedestrian experience instead of cycling.
 

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