Yonge Street, North York Streetscape Improvements

[amnesiajune]

The real issue that impacts pedestrian experience seems to be speed of car travel, volume of cars and related noise, and the biggest issue is crossing the street. So why is that not being discussed more? The discussion should include more crossings, lowering speed limits, limiting or removing rights on reds, taking away those dedicated right turn lanes, and having raised crossings. That would greatly improve pedestrian experience and diminish car experience whether lanes are removed or not.

There's no difference between the two proposals on any of the points that you raised, other than the width of Yonge being 22 meters vs. 24 meters. That's why there's not much discussion around those issues.

 

[mkerian]

There's no difference between the two proposals on any of the points that you raised, other than the width of Yonge being 22 meters vs. 24 meters. That's why there's not much discussion around those issues.

I disagree. There's not much discussion because the concept of bike lanes is riling up everyone's bloodlust.

Reducing Yonge to 4 lanes would contribute to a goal of quieter and more pedestrian friendly streets. The bike lanes could be empty for all I care. Make them baby stroller lanes.

 

[amnesiajune]

Reducing Yonge to 4 lanes would contribute to a goal of quieter and more pedestrian friendly streets.

That's not one of the things listed in that comment.

 

[mkerian]

That's not one of the things listed in that comment.

Yes it is.

A lot of the talk on the proposal relates to sidewalk widening. I agree parts of this stretch of Yonge has narrow sidewalks, but IMO for the most part the sidewalks are plenty wide. Many parts are just as wide if not wider than Yonge-Lawrence or Yonge-Davisville.

The real issue that impacts pedestrian experience seems to be speed of car travel, volume of cars and related noise, and the biggest issue is crossing the street. So why is that not being discussed more? The discussion should include more crossings, lowering speed limits, limiting or removing rights on reds, taking away those dedicated right turn lanes, and having raised crossings. That would greatly improve pedestrian experience and diminish car experience whether lanes are removed or not.

*snip*

There's no difference between the two proposals on any of the points that you raised, other than the width of Yonge being 22 meters vs. 24 meters. That's why there's not much discussion around those issues.

I disagree. There's not much discussion because the concept of bike lanes is riling up everyone's bloodlust.

Reducing Yonge to 4 lanes would contribute to a goal of quieter and more pedestrian friendly streets. The bike lanes could be empty for all I care. Make them baby stroller lanes.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I disagree. There's not much discussion because the concept of bike lanes is riling up everyone's bloodlust.

Reducing Yonge to 4 lanes would contribute to a goal of quieter and more pedestrian friendly streets. The bike lanes could be empty for all I care. Make them baby stroller lanes.

This is really the point - and one made in a long twitter thread by Gil Meslin maybe some saw. It's not just about travel times and modes it's about changing the character of the street itself, in recognition of the neighbourhood changing. Quibbling over 0.2m of sidewalk or 2 minutes of travel time misses the point and leads to arguments about the wrong things.

(I'd also add, in relation to the prior staff VS. Council debate that the city also brings in outside experts for these projects, WSP in this case. So people like Shiner and Tory are ignoring them too, and after paying them to do the work. The whole process is perverse.)

 

[mrgrieves]

I think the point is that bike lanes are a very sensitive and contentious issue. IMO the debate should have been about how to improve pedestrian experience, since you have very high population density and terrible pedestrian infrastructure. Instead it's about bike lanes a la Jarvis street. Worst case if the car lanes are preserved there are many easy ways to make the street safer and pedestrian friendly but as far as I know they're not being discussed.

Also the approach of Filion seems threatening in that he keeps saying its a once in a generation opportunity and that it's now or never. Really? You can't put in a bike lane after its re-done??

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Also the approach of Filion seems threatening in that he keeps saying its a once in a generation opportunity and that it's now or never. Really? You can't put in a bike lane after its re-done??

Yonge street is being resurfaced (and anyone who has driven on it knows there is a desperate need after all the condo construction) so, no it cannot. This is an EA process about reconstructing the road, not, picking the nicest way to paint it.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

What a lot of folks don't seem to understand is the difference between Bike Lane (just road paint) VS (Regular Street-Level) CycleTracks VS Raised CycleTracks (sidewalk level)

Raised CycleTracks are what's being proposed on Yonge in "Transform Yonge" option,... it's permanent, you can't just scrape off the paint like what was done for bike lanes on Jarvis Street (2km), Birchmount Rd (2.5km) and Pharmacy Ave (3.4km)
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2011/07/13/council_votes_to_scrap_jarvis_bike_lanes.html

Notice, the Raised CycleTracks are sidewalk level,... underground utilities like water catch basin has to be dug up and extended out from curb,..

http://dandyhorsemagazine.com/blog/2012/02/02/the-new-face-of-sherbourne-street/

This is a Bike Lane - it's just road paint! Done for Bloor Bike Lane Pilot Study,... it's just road paint,... easy on, easy off!!! Here semi-protected with relatively useless flexi-posts:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/10/11/bloor-st-bike-lanes-should-stay-city-report-finds.html

General Cost factors: “All things considered, the category of bike lane used along Bloor Street is of a cheaper variety. Hayward Gulati notes that prices rise when a more complex form of bike lane is required; the raised cycle track on Sherbourne St., for instance, cost $750,000 for 600 m of track (compared to the approximately $116,000 per 600 m for Bloor.) The bike lanes used along Bloor — i.e.: the most commonly used type of bike lane design — take a much smaller bite into the cycling budget.”
http://dandyhorsemagazine.com/blog/2016/12/02/how-much-does-a-bike-lane-cost-not-much/

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

What a lot of folks don't seem to understand is the difference between Bike Lane (just road paint) VS (Regular Street-Level) CycleTracks VS Raised CycleTracks (sidewalk level)

Raised CycleTracks are what's being proposed on Yonge in "Transform Yonge" option,... it's permanent, you can't just scrape off the paint like what was done for bike lanes on Jarvis Street (2km), Birchmount Rd (2.5km) and Pharmacy Ave (3.4km)
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2011/07/13/council_votes_to_scrap_jarvis_bike_lanes.html

Notice, the Raised CycleTracks are sidewalk level,... underground utilities like water catch basin has to be dug up and extended out from curb...

This is a Bike Lane - it's just road paint! Done for Bloor Bike Lane Pilot Study,... it's just road paint,... easy on, easy off!!! Here semi-protected with relatively useless flexi-posts:
General Cost factors: “All things considered, the category of bike lane used along Bloor Street is of a cheaper variety. Hayward Gulati notes that prices rise when a more complex form of bike lane is required; the raised cycle track on Sherbourne St., for instance, cost $750,000 for 600 m of track (compared to the approximately $116,000 per 600 m for Bloor.) The bike lanes used along Bloor — i.e.: the most commonly used type of bike lane design — take a much smaller bite into the cycling budget.”

1) Bloor Street was done as a PILOT. Obviously they weren't going to do a cycle track or anything permanent. What they'll do in the future, I don't know.
2) Flexiposts might be "relatively useless" as a physical obstacle that stops a car from zipping into a lane but I don't think they're useless at all when it comes to providing a psychological barrier for cyclists and drivers compared to mere paint on the ground
3) The Cycle Tracks on Yonge, dug-up catchbasins and all, are still $20M less than doing the same on Beecroft (and, as I pointed out out above, the whole impetus for this project is that Yonge needs to be resurfaced anyway so a bunch of that kind of stuff needs to be done no matter what road configuration you end up with).

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

3) The Cycle Tracks on Yonge, dug-up catchbasins and all, are still $20M less than doing the same on Beecroft (and, as I pointed out out above, the whole impetus for this project is that Yonge needs to be resurfaced anyway so a bunch of that kind of stuff needs to be done no matter what road configuration you end up with).

Nope. For $9million more North York Centre get 2 streets redone! Lower half of Beecroft Rd needs work,...but top half still in great shape. The City's $70 million "Enhance Yonge" & "Transform Beecroft" is off the table,.... it's now Shiner's $60 million option without land acquisition on Greenview Ave
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...scape-improvements.25913/page-23#post-1310836
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2018.PW27.1

Filion's $51 million for "Transform Yonge" with 4-lanes with CycleTracks north & 6-lanes with Uni-Directional Raised CycleTracks south
VS
Shiner's $60 million for "Enhance Yonge" staying at 6-lanes And "Transform Beecroft" staying at 4-lanes with Uni-directional Raised CycleTracks

Note: Both "Transform Yonge" and "Enhance Yonge" have same type of pedestrian sidewalk upgrade & public realm improvements just different width - (TBA but Shiner's 6-lane "Enhance Yonge" *SHOULD* deliver sidewalk width gains of 1/3 MORE (Physical average) & over 3 times MORE (on density weighted average) VS 4-lane "Transform Yonge" with CycleTrack)

"Transform Beecroft" have basic sidewalk redone

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

1) Bloor Street was done as a PILOT. Obviously they weren't going to do a cycle track or anything permanent. What they'll do in the future, I don't know.

I think we're in agreement that it would be very unwise to build and demolish a very expensive Raised CycleTracks for a PILOT Study on Yonge Street.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

The real issue that impacts pedestrian experience seems to be speed of car travel, volume of cars and related noise, and the biggest issue is crossing the street. So why is that not being discussed more? The discussion should include more crossings, lowering speed limits, limiting or removing rights on reds, taking away those dedicated right turn lanes, and having raised crossings. That would greatly improve pedestrian experience and diminish car experience whether lanes are removed or not.

Granted I have no direct experience in politics, I'm just a casual observer. But it seems like Filion invested all of his capital on this project in a very divisive issue that is a hard sell (bike lanes) and may have been more successful in making this more of a main street if he focused on pedestrian experience instead of cycling.

Regardless of "Transform Yonge" or "Enhance Yonge":
- There'll be signalized intersection generally every 200m along Yonge; new signalized intersections at Yonge & Ellerslie and Yonge & Horsham/NorthTown Way.
- North-south street crossing at side-streets will be shorten via more sidewalk padding onto roadway (road narrowing at corners).

There's barely any cyclist in Willowdale; only 0.4% mainly from residential house neighbourhood going east-west to subway station and thus, Yonge St CycleTracks would be empty!

Councillor Filion knows his constituents mainly want the wider pedestrian sidewalks and public realm improvements on Yonge Street,.... problem is he believes the Special Interest Groups from Outside the area who are making REimagining Yonge a Cyclist & Pedestrian VS 6-Lane of Traffic debate (like any other project),.... thus, Councillor Filion seems to think if he partners with these Special Interest Groups, he'll get the wider pedestrian sidewalks for Yonge Street! I already mentioned who these Outside Special Interest Groups are:
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...scape-improvements.25913/page-22#post-1309577

But it's really NOT a Cyclist & Pedestrian VS 6-Lane of Traffic debate,... when you actually examine the designs,... the introduction of CycleTracks is actually at the cost of both pedestrian sidewalk space (@Sheppard & south) and cost of 2 lanes of traffic (north of Sheppard); thus, it's really a Bike VS Pedestrian & 6-Lane of Traffic issue. IE: Pedestrian get the widest sidewalk gain by keeping 6-lane traffic!

The really funny part is,... to satisfy his constituents and get the widest possible sidewalk gain on Yonge Street, Councillor Filion should vote against his own "Transform Yonge" and vote in favour of Councillor Shiner's "Enhance Yonge" that'll deliver the wider pedestrian sidewalk on Yonge and more infrastructure money into North York Centre!

Let's forget about ideologies and examine the actual designs being considered! Or just skip the next few geeky design posts and head straight to Summary post!
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...scape-improvements.25913/page-28#post-1317416

Remember Objective of project is,.... To Widen & Improve Yonge Street Pedestrian Public Realm Sidewalk Space!

So does Shiner’s ‘hybrid’ proposal really involve widening the sidewalks, and if so by how much relative to the bike lanes on Yonge option? I’d be interested to know if there really could be scope for more generous pedestrian space than with the cycle lanes, as was suggested upthread.

One of my pet peeves about these Toronto debates is that they tend to devolve into simply “bikes vs cars,” with pedestrian improvements an afterthought. This is of course pretty crazy in light of the relative numbers; bike lanes in a Canadian climate are always going to be an amenity for a (potentially substantial) minority, whereas everyone is a pedestrian at least some of the time. Where road geometry is constrained (nb: not really an issue on North Yonge) I’d far prefer to give the extra space to sidewalks, if there has to be a choice.

Sounds like you want proof of,..... ​

Shiner's - Keeping all 6 lanes on Yonge but with "lane narrowing" (3.2m travel lanes and 3.3m curb/TTC lane) will generate 1.0m of extra sidewalk width for each side of Yonge Street throughout North York Centre.
Filion's - "Transform Yonge" (4 lanes and CycleTracks) option only get 0.3m of extra sidewalk width for each side of Yonge Street throughout North York Centre. Can't even fit patio tray on 0.3m let alone Patio!

BTW, here we go,... west-side Beecroft!

https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...scape-improvements.25913/page-23#post-1310607

Ok,.... you asked for it,....

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Councillor Shiner's "Enhance Yonge" 6-Lane with 3.0m*** Centre Median - aka: 6-Lane Base
*** Centre Median SHOULD be 3.0m

First, form the "6-Lane BASE"
Only way to increase City's sidewalk width is to eliminate or narrow other road items like centre median & traffic/parking lane
- Keep 6 traffic lanes but minimize them (to recommended 3.2m travel lane & 3.3m (bus) curb lane)
- Keep EXISTING 3.0m Centre Median (already minimized since left turn lane targeted at 3.0m)
Lane-Narrowing: gain 1m sidewalk width on each side of Yonge Street (like subway platform yellow edge strip).
Note: image of Yonge in front of Mel Lastman Square and EmpressWalk,... curb-to-curb distance varies being slightly wider at Finch and narrower at Sheppard,...

Page 16: https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/u...agining-Yonge-Street-PIC-1-Display-Panels.pdf

The 6-Lane BASE (with 3.0m Centre Median):

NOTE: This is the exact same “6-Lane Base” that Project Team uses! So easy to go back to!
 
The above 6-Lane BASE with 3.0m Centre Median is exactly what Councillor Shiner’s 6-lane “Enhance Yonge” *SHOULD BE*; with uniform tree-lined curb throughout Yonge Street and 2.85m Pedestrian Clearway (on 33.5m City Right-Of-Way).

Outcome with 3.0m Centre Median:
- 2.85m Pedestrian Clearway (on 33.5m City Right-Of-Way)
- Gain 1m (lane narrowing) in sidewalk width throughout corridor (physical & density weighted average)
- Uniform addition/enhancement of tree-lined curb on every block of Yonge Street
Bonus:
- No lost of traffic lanes
- Beecroft get CycleTracks, & sidewalk work (more needed in older south half VS north half at only 5-10 years old)
 
Note: This is best sidewalk width gain!

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Since MTO insist Yonge Street must have 6 lanes close to Highway 401, “Transform Yonge” has 2 distinct streetscape designs; a 4-lane version north of Sheppard and a 6-lane version at Sheppard and south
Note: Not Cyclist & Pedestrian VS 6-Lane of Traffic debate
Really,... Bike VS Pedestrian & 6-Lane of Traffic debate (due to CycleTrack causing lost of sidewalk space and traffic lane)


Councillor Filion’s $51 million 6-lane “Transform Yonge” Sheppard & South (with CycleTracks) – NOT Pedestrian Friendlier!
Starting with the previous 6-Lane Base:
MTO insist Yonge Street must keep all 6 traffic lanes near 401, so from just north of Sheppard Ave; the addition of 3.0m (0.8+1.5+0.7) CycleTrack with buffers is at the cost of 1m of newly gained and 2m of existing pedestrian sidewalk width (post-Base) along with lost of tree-lined curb on most blocks.

Not Pedestrian Friendlier when taking away 2m of existing sidewalk width in densest part and increasing pedestrian crossing distance on Yonge Street to 9 lanes! (2 CycleTracks + 6 Traffic Lane + Left Turn lane)
 
Neon Green on map: part of Yonge Street affected by this 6-lane system with CycleTracks eating up 2m of existing pedestrian sidewalk width!

Orange: shows tree-lined buffer between CycleTracks and Pedestrian Clearway, present on some blocks and not others
Red: shows dangerous curb-CycleTrack due to lane-shifting ½ block trying to avoid property acquisition

https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/u...500_Transform-Yonge_Stage-1_4L-2017-12-11.pdf


Outcome - South of Sheppard:
- Narrower 2.55m Pedestrian Clearway (on 33.5m City Right-Of-Way)
- Lose 2m of existing sidewalk width (increasing pedestrian crossing distance!)
- Inconsistent tree-lined curb - missing on one side, present on both sides, missing on both & spotty
- longer left turn lanes at cost of tree-lined Centre Median
Note: Dangerous ½ block “shift 1 lane over detour” for southbound Yonge between Poyntz Ave & Johnston Ave
Councillor Filion’s “Transform Yonge” – South does not include tree-lined curb, if it did then Pedestrian Clearway would be 0.55m (less than City minimum requirement); for a fairer apple to apple comparison


Density Weighted Average
This stretch accounts for 20% of corridor (the 1m from lane narrowing now average to 40cm net width gain for entire corridor). Sidewalks are for people; based on distribution of high-density developments clustering near subway stations and higher volume of pedestrian traffic towards subway stations (& Avondale Condo Community along 401 dependant on this stretch of Yonge Street (in neon green)), density weighted average gives a clearer view:
1/3 of people in Yonge Corridor will lose 2m of existing sidewalk width!
Negates the 1m gain from Lane-Narrowing for the remaining 2/3 (north of Sheppard)
Therefore, ZERO sidewalk width gain for entire corridor (density weighted average)

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Councillor Filion’s $51 million 4-lane “Transform Yonge” North of Sheppard (with CycleTracks) – “Engineered For Failure” Design
Starting with the previous 6-Lane Base:
6-lanes Base reduce to 4 traffic lanes: Converting traffic lane (3.2m + 0.7m buffer) to CycleTrack (1.5m + 0.7m buffer + 0.5m buffer) = 1.2m sidewalk width gain per side.

For following Streetscape Cross-Sections, Legend:
- Red Line: 75cm Sidewalk Width (part of 1.2m gained from Traffic Lane to CycleTrack conversion)
- Blue Line: All items (above) required to shift 75cm in direction of arrow to make room for elimination of CycleTrack with conversion back to a 6-Lane “Base” system
 
Original "Transform Yonge" North with 3.0m Centre Median: Both 75cm "Bonus Sidewalk Width" goes on sidewalk (requires confidence in CycleTrack)
Switch-Back: add $22mil (dressed curb) CycleTrack Failure Cost: $48mil ($22mil + $20mil(dressed curb) + $6mil(CycleTrack))

Page 21 with 3.0m Centre Median - July 25, 2016: https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/u...agining-Yonge-Street-PIC-2-Display-Panels.pdf

Current "Transform Yonge" - North proposal with 4.5m padded Centre Median (Expect CycleTrack Failure)
Switch-Back: add $4mil (barren apron) CycleTrack PILOT STUDY: $12mil ($4mil +$6mil(CycleTrack) +$2mil(CentreMedian Apron))

Page 15 with 4.5m Centre Median - Sept 29, 2016: https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/u...agining-Yonge-Street-PIC-3-Display-Panels.pdf

Note: Padding each side of Centre Median by 75cm is significant because it allows them to switch back to a 6-lane system without having to shift any of the $10million row of trees. Per side,... Sidewalk gain from 3.2m travel lane to 2.7m CycleTrack (including 0.7m curb buffer) = 1.2m; Two 3.2m Travel Lanes reduced to 3.0m (more suitable for 40km/hr) + 25cm gutter reduced to 20cm minimum = 45cm. 1.2m - 45cm = 75cm! End up at “Minimal” 6-Lane Base: shaved 4.5m Centre Median back down to 3.0m, curb buffer loses 0.05m (both Stolen 75cm Sidewalk Width back on roadway).

This “Minimal” 6-lane Base is NOT same 6-lane Base originally started with. Now all Travel Lanes reduced from 3.2m (recommended for 50km/hr) to 3.0m more suitable for 40km/hr; thus, Lower Traffic Capacity and increasing chances of side-swipe vehicular collisions in this more dangerous lane configuration.

Padded 4.5m Centre Median: added repurposed 75cm Sidewalk Width to existing 50cm paved apron on each side of 2m tree well. Note: There’s no sidewalk on Centre Median!

Page 24: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2018/pw/bgrd/backgroundfile-110645.pdf

(I'd also add, in relation to the prior staff VS. Council debate that the city also brings in outside experts for these projects, WSP in this case. So people like Shiner and Tory are ignoring them too, and after paying them to do the work. The whole process is perverse.)

https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...scape-improvements.25913/page-27#post-1313871
​

What's "perverse" is,.... City Staff & WSP padded Centre Median from existing 3.0m to 4.5m,... by stealing pedestrian sidewalk width!,... the stated project objective is to maximize pedestrian sidewalk space! Now expensive ($10 million) tree-lined streetscape items are far enough apart to easily facilitate a switch-back to 6-lane system (translation: this is an expensive $12 million CycleTrack Pilot Study VS $1 million for Bike Lane Pilot Study); shows City Staff expected CycleTracks to fail and City Staff's Traffic Modelling is wrong using 0.6% annual increase in traffic volume; yet North York Center and 905 population grows at around 3% annually.
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...scape-improvements.25913/page-24#post-1311431


Now you understand why there's the huge red flag of 4.5m Center Median north of Sheppard but only 3.0m south!

https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...scape-improvements.25913/page-23#post-1310819


Outcome - North of Sheppard with 4.5m Padded Centre Median:
- Wider 3.3m Pedestrian Clearway (on 33.5m City Right-Of-Way)
- Gain 1m from Lane-narrowing (physical average)
- Gain only 45cm of 1.2m possible sidewalk width gain from Traffic Lane to CycleTrack conversion; 75cm went to pad Centre Median as insurance for expected CycleTrack failure!
- Uniform addition/enhancement of tree-lined curb here


Outcome - For Entire Corridor:
- Average 3.15m Pedestrian Clearway (on 33.5m City Right-Of-Way)
- Gain from Lane-narrowing now amounts to 40 cm (physical average) and Zero (density weighted average)
- Gain from Traffic Lane to CycleTrack amounts to 45cm (physical average) & 30cm (density weighted average)
- Gain about 76cm (physical average) Note: Staff report claiming 1m gain here
Note: Beecroft gets nothing. More confusing streetscape design - north VS south of Sheppard where curb sometimes is tree-lined while others not!