Yonge Street, North York Streetscape Improvements

[sunnyraytoronto]

When I said NYCC should be destination I meant that it should attract more pull from York Region and Toronto. It's one of the few successful mini downtowns. The large problems are the traffic is horrendous there because it's mostly used as a through route from 401 to York Region. The aim of the project is to make the area nicer for the local residents and more pleasant a place to walk, bike. Mel Lastman Square is well used but it's a hoge poge of a square. The space is very segmented and doesn't flow together at all.

A destination isn't just limited to just one street; thus project expanding to include more streets.

The problem is some (Jennifer Keesmaat and Ken Greenberg) think North York Centre is a "mini downtown" area where reducing traffic/parking lanes causing more traffic congestion,... will eventually force people to cycle more,... but that's impossible for this area. (We already have the worst gridlock traffic congestion in the city,... but our cycling mode share is 1/3 city-wide average!)

Just because North York Centre has a cluster of towers doesn't mean it's a "mini downtown" area,... since amalgamation, there's been 60 new residential towers built in North York Centre but only one office tower,.... North York Centre is a vertical sleeping community,.... with the net flow of traffic going out in the morning! 70% of southbound Yonge traffic ends up on Highway 401 where no bikes are allowed and the other 30% ends up in the valley - good luck riding up those hills! Then consider commuter distance is generally outside the 1-4km cycling sweet-spot. This makes commuter cycling in the area basically impossible! Now, guess where NYCC northbound Yonge traffic comes from?

I do agree with "The aim of the project is to make the area nicer for the local residents and more pleasant a place to walk, bike.",... jog, roller-blade, hang out, play, shop, dine, etc,... go to next 2 community consultation meeting (late summer early fall) and you should see better safer more inclusive active infrastructure solution (rings) that'll actually improve area's public realm space by allowing increase in net walkable pedestrian sidewalk space on Yonge, enhance local park system and encourage locals and workers to stay in area instead of making a bee-line out,... all this can be done without eliminating any traffic/parking lanes on Yonge or ring roads!

 

[amnesiajune]

Even with cycle tracks on Yonge Street, it would still be too dangerous (too many high volume vehicle-cyclist conflict points) and thus, most won't cycle on them. It's like putting lipstick on a pig. City staff & consultant knows this, that's why they changed the original July 2016 "preferred" design to the latest Sept 2017 "preferred" design with super wide tree line centre median at the cost of the promised wider pedestrian sidewalk width!,.... easier and about $25 million cheaper to convert the failed cycle tracks back to traffic/parking lane!

I'm not sure how that follows... The city knew bike lanes would be underused, so they made the sidewalk narrower and the centre median wider?

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

I'm not sure how that follows... The city knew bike lanes would be underused, so they made the sidewalk narrower and the centre median wider?

Look at the two cross-sections I posted from ReImaginingYongeStreetStudy,... and think. Converting those 2.5m wide cycle tracks back to 3.2m wide traffic/parking lanes requires 0.7m of space,... where are they going to get that 0.7m width of space from? Two ways,... shift 0.7m to side eating up sidewalk space,... or shift 0.7m towards centre eating up tree-lined centre median (road lanes width are already minimized!).

In original July 2016 "preferred" design, converting those 2.5m wide cycle tracks back to 3.2m wide traffic/parking lanes with 0.7m shift to side requires expensive shifting of curb, street furniture, utilities like light post towards private property lines along Yonge,... eating up wide pedestrian sidewalk space. Estimated cost of additional $35-40 million.

In latest Sept 2016 "preferred" design, converting those 2.5m wide cycle tracks back to 3.2m wide traffic/parking lanes requires much cheaper repaint of roadway 0.7m towards centre and narrowing of 4.5m tree-lined centre median back to 3.0m. Estimated cost of additional $10-15 million.

Why did City Staff and consultant settle for the Sept 2016 "preferred" design that's cheaper to convert back and does not maximize pedestrian sidewalk space??? (actually decrease net walkable sidewalk space VS current). Simple, they know Yonge Street Cycle Tracks will fail and they'll have to convert it back to traffic/parking lanes! That's why now they're desperately working on alternative solutions now.

 

[amnesiajune]

In latest Sept 2016 "preferred" design, converting those 2.5m wide cycle tracks back to 3.2m wide traffic/parking lanes requires much cheaper repaint of roadway 0.7m towards centre and narrowing of 4.5m tree-lined centre median back to 3.0m. Estimated cost of additional $10-15 million.

I'm not sure where you get this impression. They'd have to rip out the median if they wanted to take back those 0.7 meters on either side. That's not just a repainting of the roadway.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

I'm not sure where you get this impression. They'd have to rip out the median if they wanted to take back those 0.7 meters on either side. That's not just a repainting of the roadway.

AmnesiaJune,... isn't that what I stated?,.... "narrowing of 4.5m tree-lined centre median back to 3.0m",... that's where the bulk of that $10-15million cost estimate comes from.

 

[amnesiajune]

AmnesiaJune,... isn't that what I stated?,.... "narrowing of 4.5m tree-lined centre median back to 3.0m",... that's where the bulk of that $10-15million cost estimate comes from.

Yeah... no. The Scarborough Subway is probably about as likely to end up costing $10-15 million.

The median isn't lines on the ground that can be repainted. It's a concrete wall that has to be torn out (along with all the trees) and then rebuilt.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Yeah... no. The Scarborough Subway is probably about as likely to end up costing $10-15 million.

The median isn't lines on the ground that can be repainted. It's a concrete wall that has to be torn out (along with all the trees) and then rebuilt.

AmnesiaJune,.... since you are not comfortable with my cost estimates,... what are your cost estimate for narrowing (rebuilding) tree lined centre median from 4.5m to 3.0m?

 

[amnesiajune]

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert

 

[lead82]

The city needs to make the investments.

A destination isn't just limited to just one street; thus project expanding to include more streets.
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I agree. It shouldn't be just one street. It should be a grid and streets like Finch, Sheppard should also get an upgrade between Beecroft and Doris and make it a dense network in NYCC. We have to start somewhere.
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The problem is some (Jennifer Keesmaat and Ken Greenberg) think North York Centre is a "mini downtown" area where reducing traffic/parking lanes causing more traffic congestion,... will eventually force people to cycle more,... but that's impossible for this area. (We already have the worst gridlock traffic congestion in the city,... but our cycling mode share is 1/3 city-wide average!)

I disagree. It is a mini-downtown. It has all the services one needs from a downtown. Sure it's mostly vertical residential but there is significant office and retail component. I wish there could be more but the area is not as attractive as downtown for office space as tax rates are same as downtown vs 905. City should have policies to encourage office investment but a residential urban centre is still a mini downtown in my book - semantics really.

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Just because North York Centre has a cluster of towers doesn't mean it's a "mini downtown" area,... since amalgamation, there's been 60 new residential towers built in North York Centre but only one office tower,.... North York Centre is a vertical sleeping community,.... with the net flow of traffic going out in the morning! 70% of southbound Yonge traffic ends up on Highway 401 where no bikes are allowed and the other 30% ends up in the valley - good luck riding up those hills! Then consider commuter distance is generally outside the 1-4km cycling sweet-spot. This makes commuter cycling in the area basically impossible! Now, guess where NYCC northbound Yonge traffic comes from?

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Yes this is true most traffic is coming from and to the 401. However, a huge chunk of that traffic is not from local residents but from the 905 commuters coming through NYCC. I agree that the cycling lanes likely won't encourage too much initiatelly because they need to go further beyond the initial area. They could encourage more people to switch from taking the car or being dropped off at subway and switch to cycling to the subway. The 401 is a huge barrier. The project scope should extend the cycle tracks past the 401 and connect with an existing bike route. My point of view is that we shouldn't stop projects that improve the bike network. The cycle lanes would get more use off peak for leisure activities or going to local services in the area (library, pool, movies, cafe/restaurant). These are baby steps we are taking. It's a starting point and by no means should it be the end state. NYCC is urban and dense and will get even more so. The road space could be better used. Perhaps there is a way to mitigate the design so that it's not bike lanes or sidewalk widths. Maybe have the cycle tracks on one side of the road vs both. Perhaps the lanes can be narrowed - Ontario lanes are very wide.
--
I do agree with "The aim of the project is to make the area nicer for the local residents and more pleasant a place to walk, bike.",... jog, roller-blade, hang out, play, shop, dine, etc,... go to next 2 community consultation meeting (late summer early fall) and you should see better safer more inclusive active infrastructure solution (rings) that'll actually improve area's public realm space by allowing increase in net walkable pedestrian sidewalk space on Yonge, enhance local park system and encourage locals and workers to stay in area instead of making a bee-line out,... all this can be done without eliminating any traffic/parking lanes on Yonge or ring roads!

I'd be interested to see this but I may not have time to go to the community consultations due to my personal schedule and travel for business.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

The city needs to make the investments.

The City needs to invest wisely.

The City's July 2016 design would cost $52 million to build and $35-40 million put traffic/parking lanes back!
The City's Sept 2016 design would cost $52 million to build and $10-15 million put traffic/parking lanes back!
In the end, after "investing" $62-92 million (enough to rebuild 4-6 local schools) we'd be back at 3 traffic/parking lanes in each direction and no active/cycling infrastructure in the area! This isn't investing, it's throwing money away,... that's why City Staff now covering their butts.

I agree. It shouldn't be just one street. It should be a grid and streets like Finch, Sheppard should also get an upgrade between Beecroft and Doris and make it a dense network in NYCC. We have to start somewhere.

It should be more like a "series of rings" or call it a mini-grid,... but not likely to directly include Finch and Sheppard between Beecroft and Doris for the same reason why it's problematic on Yonge Street:
- cost of traffic lanes and thus more congestion
- cost of net walkable pedestrian sidewalk width (generally narrower sidewalk here!)
- safety/liability issues, high volume of turning Sheppard/Finch bus traffic servicing busy bus terminals

Forget about Minimum-Grid and actually focus on building something good for NYCC.

I disagree. It is a mini-downtown. It has all the services one needs from a downtown. Sure it's mostly vertical residential but there is significant office and retail component. I wish there could be more but the area is not as attractive as downtown for office space as tax rates are same as downtown vs 905. City should have policies to encourage office investment but a residential urban centre is still a mini downtown in my book - semantics really.

Officially, the city and province calls it an "urban growth centre",... but it functions as a sleeping community due to the high proportion of residential VS local employment area; it's just that it's hidden in towers,... thus vertical sleeping community!

Look at the main function and services of the area's retail stores (primarily restuarants, ethnic food places, mini-marts) to service the area's residential population. North York Centre gave up on it's underground PATH system for offices decades ago,... the local office supply/computer Staple store at EmpressWalk close down and will be replaced with a PetsMart - to service the residential population.

Yes this is true most traffic is coming from and to the 401. However, a huge chunk of that traffic is not from local residents but from the 905 commuters coming through NYCC.

905 drivers are more likely to use Bayview than Yonge.

Examining southbound Yonge St traffic volume during AM Peak Time, from Finch Hydro Corridor to 401 it gets heavier and more congested as you get closer to Sheppard and 401, as you add more NYCC vertical sleeping community drivers.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

I agree that the cycling lanes likely won't encourage too much initiatelly because they need to go further beyond the initial area. They could encourage more people to switch from taking the car or being dropped off at subway and switch to cycling to the subway. The 401 is a huge barrier. The project scope should extend the cycle tracks past the 401 and connect with an existing bike route.

Wow, and you're telling me that. (Folks who know who I am are laughing!)

From NYCC, once you ride south of 401 past the other side of valley, you're already ridden beyond the 1-4km sweet-spot cycling distance. Then you're dealing with "existing bike route" in midtown that only consist of primarily of signed shared roadways (not even marked bike lanes) in an area with high density of vehicular-cyclist conflict points. No thanks.

My point of view is that we shouldn't stop projects that improve the bike network. The cycle lanes would get more use off peak for leisure activities or going to local services in the area (library, pool, movies, cafe/restaurant). These are baby steps we are taking. It's a starting point and by no means should it be the end state. NYCC is urban and dense and will get even more so. The road space could be better used. Perhaps there is a way to mitigate the design so that it's not bike lanes or sidewalk widths. Maybe have the cycle tracks on one side of the road vs both. Perhaps the lanes can be narrowed - Ontario lanes are very wide.

Ahh,... and where are these "community hubs" of library, pool, theatre, etc,.... schools, churches,... I don't recall them being primarily along Yonge Street.

Proposed Yonge Street Cycle Tracks already minimized all traffic lanes to city and TTC guidelines. Problem is cycling advocates insisted on super wide cycle tracks that allow cyclist to safely pass each other, huh? 2-way Cycle Tracks on one side of road is called Bi-Directional Cycle Tracks and are being done on LakeShore West near Royal York but cycling advocates didn't want them on Yonge (I once proposed these), but it's their way or no way, so guess what? Again, cycling advocates are their own worst enemy.

https://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=644560560580f410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD

The proposed Yonge Street Cycle Tracks is a thoroughfare that would hardly benefit the locals of NYCC; does more damage (traffic congestion, bad for retail, lost of net walkable pedestrian sidewalk space)!

The new alternative design takes advantage of NYCC's unique characteristics to form a safer more inclusive "series of rings" active infrastructure that treats NYCC's dense urban environment as it's centre piece and is expandable outward (existing Finch Hydro Corridor trail, cemetery & Earl Bales Park trails, future Yonge-401 crossing, possible future Don Valley connectors, etc,...)

When looking at the entire NYCC area,... an alternative (series of rings) network of safer more inclusive active infrastructure can be introduce that's beneficial to everyone:
- without eliminating any traffic/parking lanes on Yonge, Beecroft or Doris (thus allowing the current intensification of the area to continue)
- increasing net walkable pedestrian sidewalk space on Yonge Street

I'd be interested to see this but I may not have time to go to the community consultations due to my personal schedule and travel for business.

No problem,... as usual once made public, their community consultation presentation slides will be posted online after those consultation meetings.

 

[lead82]

Ahh,... and where are these "community hubs" of library, pool, theatre, etc,.... schools, churches,... I don't recall them being primarily along Yonge Street.
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Most of those elements are primarily on Yonge or a few blocks east or west.

Can you elaborate what you mean by series of rings? I'm curious to understand the new alternative design being proposed. Is it going to put the cycle tracks on Beecroft and Doris instead?

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Most of those elements are primarily on Yonge or a few blocks east or west.

Actually, no - the "community hubs" are not along Yonge Street. Community Hubs generally got pushed off Yonge Street with the urbanization of the area; it's mainly retail along Yonge Street itself.

The "Community Hubs" (library, civic centres, schools, churches, parks, community centre) are generally focused along the Ring Roads of Beecroft and Doris,... thus, a community centric active infrastructure network would naturally utilize the Ring Roads of Beecroft and Doris as it's focus. The larger retail hubs (SheppardCentre, EmpressWalk, EmeraldPark, NorthYorkCityCentre, etc,...) while on Yonge, they are generally so large, they are easily accessible along Beecroft and Doris.

Can you elaborate what you mean by series of rings? I'm curious to understand the new alternative design being proposed. Is it going to put the cycle tracks on Beecroft and Doris instead?

The "series of rings" will provide access to subway stations and other key destinations along Yonge Street.

City Staff have been instructed by City Council and Public Works & Infrastructure Committee to examine alternative active infrastructure solutions along Beecroft, Doris and Willowdale (north of Finch Hydro Corridor to Steeles)

 

[lead82]

Thanks for the explanation. Sounds like you work for the city to know his stuff.

 

[constructo]

For those interested in the scope, details, finances and progress to date, you can find a full, detailed report at this link.

Interim Project Status Update - REimagining Yonge (Sheppard to Finch) Municipal Class Environmental Assessment Study