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Yonge-Dundas Square/Sankofa Square (Brown + Storey Architects)

Yeah, wild. Unrelated question: how have cities that successfully brought down rates of homelessness and lessened the associated mental health issues which go along with it gone about doing that?
 
I always thought that Timothy Eaton Sq was the easiest and most obvious name. And they could've put that famous bronze statue of him (with the toe rubbed out) somewhere just to provide a "there" meeting place and a selfie backdrop.
 
I always thought that Timothy Eaton Sq was the easiest and most obvious name. And they could've put that famous bronze statue of him (with the toe rubbed out) somewhere just to provide a "there" meeting place and a selfie backdrop.
I don't know if drug dealers abide by a "goods satisfactory or money refunded" principle ;-)
 
So years after that "gradual" motion, when he was Secretary-at-War when the British forces bought slaves to fight Napoleon, and when he was president of the board of the East India Company who were still using slaves after it was banned in England, how much of an abolitionist was he? Or when he sought to push that "gradual" end date back even further, which the HoC ended up rejecting?

At the most, Dundas was an opportunist who knew well which way the winds of the public were blowing. He knew enough not to vote for slavery himself (to my knowledge, there are no known recorded votes or witnesses of Dundas-the-abolitionist voting for or against slavery), and as Scottish Whip and "Uncrowned King of Scotland", he had more than enough political power to have others do it for him.

Aside from that, he was just a terrible person by most accounts. Not many liked him; he took his wife's birthright and estate, and was later in life impeached for embezzling from the government. What a great man to be venerated for eternity in Southern Ontario, huh?
In the 20th century, historians were divided over whether Dundas should be held solely responsible for prolonging the slave trade. Historians of the slave trade and the abolitionist movement, including David Brion Davis, Roger Anstey, Robin Blackburn, and Stephen Tomkins commented that Dundas's actions delayed rather than facilitated abolition.[32][33][34][35][36] According to Davis, "By making the abolition of the slave trade dependent on colonial reforms, Dundas suggested possibilities for indefinite delay."[32] Stephen Mullen, a research associate at Glasgow University, called Dundas "a great delayer" of abolition in 2021.[37] These claims were criticized by historian Angela McCarthy, who rejected the notion that Dundas's actions were so singularly determinative of the course of events.[38]

Other historians of British history argue that delay was inevitable. Angela McCarthy notes that the revolutionary wars with France, and opposition in the House of Lords and in the royal family, presented enormous obstacles.[39] Sir Tom Devine, whose publications include editing Recovering Scotland's Slavery Past: The Caribbean Connection (Edinburgh University Press, 2015), has said that blaming Dundas solely for delay in the abolition of the slave trade ignores the wider political and economic factors that were the true causes of delay.[40] In another Scottish Affairs article, McCarthy held that leading anti-Dundas activist Professor Emeritus Sir Geoff Palmer repeatedly misrepresented published sources.[41] Brian Young notes that in 1792, the motion for immediate cessation of the slave trade was heading for certain defeat. By inserting the word "gradual" into the motion, Young says Dundas ensured a successful vote for the ultimate abolition of the trade in slaves.[42]
 
In the 20th century, historians were divided over whether Dundas should be held solely responsible for prolonging the slave trade. Historians of the slave trade and the abolitionist movement, including David Brion Davis, Roger Anstey, Robin Blackburn, and Stephen Tomkins commented that Dundas's actions delayed rather than facilitated abolition.[32][33][34][35][36] According to Davis, "By making the abolition of the slave trade dependent on colonial reforms, Dundas suggested possibilities for indefinite delay."[32] Stephen Mullen, a research associate at Glasgow University, called Dundas "a great delayer" of abolition in 2021.[37] These claims were criticized by historian Angela McCarthy, who rejected the notion that Dundas's actions were so singularly determinative of the course of events.[38]

Other historians of British history argue that delay was inevitable. Angela McCarthy notes that the revolutionary wars with France, and opposition in the House of Lords and in the royal family, presented enormous obstacles.[39] Sir Tom Devine, whose publications include editing Recovering Scotland's Slavery Past: The Caribbean Connection (Edinburgh University Press, 2015), has said that blaming Dundas solely for delay in the abolition of the slave trade ignores the wider political and economic factors that were the true causes of delay.[40] In another Scottish Affairs article, McCarthy held that leading anti-Dundas activist Professor Emeritus Sir Geoff Palmer repeatedly misrepresented published sources.[41] Brian Young notes that in 1792, the motion for immediate cessation of the slave trade was heading for certain defeat. By inserting the word "gradual" into the motion, Young says Dundas ensured a successful vote for the ultimate abolition of the trade in slaves.[42]
Everyone seems focused on saying he was an abolitionist based entirely on one 1792 motion put before the HoC. It was indeed the House of Lords that kept full abolition from happening, but it is certainly not possible to say that Dundas was a man who really cared about abolishing slavery.

The following aren't speculations or interpretations from Palmer or any other historian:

This was a man who by all counts held as much political clout as—if not more than–the Prime Minister.

After the 1792 motion, he did nothing to abolish the purchase and use of slaves at times he had the power and position to do so—as Secretary at War (1794-1803) and President of the Board of the East India Company (1793-1801). Again, the East India Company continued using slaves under his tenure and well until the 1830s, even as a crown corporation of the UK where it was banned (with his help). You can't tell me he wasn't in a position in either post to put an end to slavery within the military or EIC—He quite literally controlled both. And when he was Secretary at War in 1796, he spoke against moving up the abolition date because it would be inconvenient for the military not to have slaves. He was also known for promoting, funding and protecting West Indian interests (slave owners).

Pragmatic realist? Sure. Abolitionist, not really.

Aside from astroturfing by the decendents of the Melville/Dundas clan, there are very few people—let alone historian—who count Dundas efforts amongst those of Wilberforce, Clarkson or Dickson. They were the abolitionists of the time. Dundas was a politician.
 
Everyone seems focused on saying he was an abolitionist based entirely on one 1792 motion put before the HoC. It was indeed the House of Lords that kept full abolition from happening, but it is certainly not possible to say that Dundas was a man who really cared about abolishing slavery.

The following aren't speculations or interpretations from Palmer or any other historian:

This was a man who by all counts held as much political clout as—if not more than–the Prime Minister.

After the 1792 motion, he did nothing to abolish the purchase and use of slaves at times he had the power and position to do so—as Secretary at War (1794-1803) and President of the Board of the East India Company (1793-1801). Again, the East India Company continued using slaves under his tenure and well until the 1830s, even as a crown corporation of the UK where it was banned (with his help). You can't tell me he wasn't in a position in either post to put an end to slavery within the military or EIC—He quite literally controlled both. And when he was Secretary at War in 1796, he spoke against moving up the abolition date because it would be inconvenient for the military not to have slaves. He was also known for promoting, funding and protecting West Indian interests (slave owners).

Pragmatic realist? Sure. Abolitionist, not really.

Aside from astroturfing by the decendents of the Melville/Dundas clan, there are very few people—let alone historian—who count Dundas efforts amongst those of Wilberforce, Clarkson or Dickson. They were the abolitionists of the time. Dundas was a politician.


The fact of the matter is, it was 200 years ago and it was a completely different political climate back then. We really don't know what his agenda was.

Renaming streets and subway stations is quite the hoopla considering there are conflicting reports on what kind of person he was and what his agenda was. If it was proven that he was a racist or condone slavery, I could see the argument here, but that's not that facts.
 
The fact of the matter is, it was 200 years ago and it was a completely different political climate back then. We really don't know what his agenda was.

Renaming streets and subway stations is quite the hoopla considering there are conflicting reports on what kind of person he was and what his agenda was. If it was proven that he was a racist or condone slavery, I could see the argument here, but that's not that facts.
It wasn't that completely different, there is no real conflicting reports here and enabling is sometimes just as bad as condoning. As well as Council dropped the renaming of the street business.

...either way, I don't see an issue of renaming of Dundas Square here, regardless of their reasons. I think it's a good start, IMO. And it's my hope it brings in a needed facelift, to put it mildly.

(Least they're not renaming it after eff'ing Rob Ford! >.< )
 
The fact of the matter is, it was 200 years ago and it was a completely different political climate back then. We really don't know what his agenda was.
We know what the agenda of the actual abolitionists of the time were, and that they didn't count Dundas among them.
 

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