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With the benefit of hindsight, how to change Canada's immigration policy?

theowne said:
But you also have to remember that these provinces have a large amount of poverty among Aboriginal communities and as a result, crime, (which is horrible, by the way), so that also boosts the numbers, doesn't it?
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That's a pretty weak excuse.

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/Products/Analytic/companion/abor/tables/total/abpopdist.cfm

Ontario has the highest percentage of the aboriginal poplulation in the country, along with the highest immigration rates in the country...but the lowest crime rate and one of the lowest dropout rates.

So again, why are certain posters ignoring that quite a few of the provinces with the highest crime and dropout rates also have the highest concentrations of people with a European background?

Perhaps all immigration from European countries should be halted?

Or maybe in hindsight they should've all been sent back to Europe when we had the chance?

See how preposterous that line of thinking is when you apply it from another perspective?
 
Syn, in case you forget, I am an immigrant and I'm not trying to make up excuses for a European-descent population that I do not belong to. But I do think that you have to look at all sides before making a conclusion. As for Ontario, according to Macleans, Brantford and Thunder Bay have a lot of crime (somewhere in the top 10). So not all of Ontario is clean, I'd be interested in comparing conditions of Aboriginal communities in Ontario versus Western area. My emphasis is on "poverty", not "Aboriginal".

Show me the proof!
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Go read Macleans. Regina, Saskatoon and Winnipeg led the most crime-infested cities.
 
Clearly, those stats show the Western provinces (and northern territories) have higher crime rates than the East. Could that have something to do with the ratio of unemployed and/or aborigionals to the general population? And perhaps education levels and rural vs. urban living environments?

It is interesting to note that other than Ontario (the wealthiest, best educated people live in Ontario, and most immigrants/visible minorities settle in the wealthiest region: the GTA) the Eastern provinces have the lowest number of crimes, as well as the lowest number of visible minorities.

I think Mr Beez probably watches too much tv, and perhaps does represent the "white management class" I dealt with for much of my working life; they are the most resistant to change.

But I have a better idea of how to manage crime: immigrants must be able to support themselves for a minimum of 5 years after they arrive in Canada; thus eliminating one of the most visible sources of criminals in Canada: social housing. Shouldn't social housing be for "real" Canadians? Like folks laid off from working in factories, with little savings? (Of course that gets me to another beef: there should be a law in Canada stating you must save at least 10% of your income for a rainy day....)
 
Who are "real Canadians"?

It is interesting to note that other than Ontario (the wealthiest, best educated people live in Ontario, and most immigrants/visible minorities settle in the wealthiest region: the GTA)
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Is this trying to dismiss the fact that Toronto, having the largest immigrant population, has a relatively low crime rate?

Halifax is the 10th most dangerous city in Toronto, and it has a small visible minority population.

This is also "interesting to note".
 
syn said:
That's a pretty weak excuse.

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/Products/Analytic/companion/abor/tables/total/abpopdist.cfm


So again, why are certain posters ignoring that quite a few of the provinces with the highest crime and dropout rates also have the highest concentrations of people with a European background?

Perhaps all immigration from European countries should be halted?

Or maybe in hindsight they should've all been sent back to Europe when we had the chance?

See how preposterous that line of thinking is when you apply it from another perspective?
Click to expand...

In those areas a high percentage of the crime is committed by people of aboriginal decent not European. Knowing that if only we could travel back and time and stop the ice age from happening. This way there would be no ice bridge across the Bering Straight and those trouble causing aboriginals would have stayed in Asia. Damn you ICE AGE!

By the way for those of you lacking the ability to detect sarcasm please take a valium and don't go nuts about this post.
 
theowne said:
Syn, in case you forget, I am an immigrant and I'm not trying to make up excuses for a European-descent population that I do not belong to. But I do think that you have to look at all sides before making a conclusion. As for Ontario, according to Macleans, Brantford and Thunder Bay have a lot of crime (somewhere in the top 10). So not all of Ontario is clean, I'd be interested in comparing conditions of Aboriginal communities in Ontario versus Western area. My emphasis is on "poverty", not "Aboriginal".



Go read Macleans. Regina, Saskatoon and Winnipeg led the most crime-infested cities.
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Oh, I totally agree. I'm just trying to make a point. Admiral Beez states:

"It seems that a week doesn't go by in Toronto where some son of Caribbean-born immigrants is not involved in violent crime in Toronto. The cause of this trouble is definitely poverty and family breakdown, and has nothing to do with race, as Canada's African immigrants are doing well. However, if we can avoid bringing the parents of these future criminals to Canada, we can avoid the problem all together."

The reality is that most people from this region are positive contributors. The crime rate among multi-generation Canadians of European descent might actually be higher than the crime rate among the group Grandmaster Beez wants to eradicate from the immigration list...yet that doesn't seem to be a problem worth starting multiple threads over (with different screen names too).
 
syn said:
You cannot judge integration simply based on place of origin. It has to be a case by case decision.
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You cannot judge on a case by case basis - since they are not hear, and we have no real investigative arm outside of Canada - so you really do not know anything about them. So that won't work either. Not to mention if you judge on a case by case basis it becomes subjective in nature anyways - which means it is in the eye of the interviewer as well.


syn said:
Whatever the location - you cannot discriminate based on nationality.
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Sure you can, it is written right at the top of the constitution
"RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS IN CANADA. " so it covers everyone IN Canada, and once in Canada - then you cannot discriminate based on origin -- but they are not in Canada.....

There is discrimination based on origin already - we only have embassies in certain countries - which means that those in countries where we have embassies are likely to be in a better position.
 
billy corgan said:
In those areas a high percentage of the crime is committed by people of aboriginal decent not European.
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All of the crime committed by people of Aboriginal descent? I don't' think so. There has to be quite a lot of crime committed by people of other backgrounds too.


billy corgan said:
Knowing that if only we could travel back and time and stop the ice age from happening. This way there would be no ice bridge across the Bering Straight and those trouble causing aboriginals would have stayed in Asia. Damn you ICE AGE!
Click to expand...

lol
 
cacruden said:
You cannot judge on a case by case basis - since they are not hear, and we have no real investigative arm outside of Canada - so you really do not know anything about them. So that won't work either. Not to mention if you judge on a case by case basis it becomes subjective in nature anyways - which means it is in the eye of the interviewer as well.
Click to expand...

Of course you can. Candidates have to apply. Immigrants aren't just randomly selected.


cacruden said:
Sure you can, it is written right at the top of the constitution "RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS IN CANADA. " so it covers everyone IN Canada, and once in Canada - then you cannot discriminate based on origin -- but they are not in Canada.....

There is discrimination based on origin already - we only have embassies in certain countries - which means that those in countries where we have embassies are likely to be in a better position.
Click to expand...

I don't mean discrimination by it's most basic definition. We're talking about prejudice.

There is no sane reason to bar all people from a certain region, or of a certain nationality, ethnocultural group. It simply isn't in keeping with what it means to be Canadian.
 
Is this trying to dismiss the fact that Toronto, having the largest immigrant population, has a relatively low crime rate?
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No. I am merely saying the overall wealth of Toronto, and support networks for various ethnic groups, helps to mitigate the number of crimes committed by various people. On the othe hand, it also increases the rate of white collar crime--Bay Street tax/stock/whatever fraud, for example; or high densities create more opportunity for criminals to thrive.

Halifax is the 10th most dangerous city in Toronto, and it has a small visible minority population.
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Halifax is in Toronto? lol

While the small visible minority perhaps could be commiting some of the crime (I know this fact to be true--many of my friends are from "down east") there are many un-employed European background people (that means Scots/Irish usually in NS) living on EI thanks to the destruction of the resource sector--fisheries, timber and coal mining. So take working class people who normally are suspicious of anything involving education, a smaller city with a high proportion of "rich" university students (the "target), and live on less than $500/month, and yes, you get increased risk for criminal acts....

This is also "interesting to note".
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Indeed it is. It is very complex, but until you've witnessed/lived the vastness that is Canada, it is hard to comprehend. For example, why is Thunder Bay and Brantford high on the list of crime-ridden Ontario cities? Hmm. I suggest you take a drive through those cities, or pull out a map. Conveniently, both have large First Nation's reserves on their doorsteps....
 
cacruden said:
You cannot judge on a case by case basis - since they are not hear, and we have no real investigative arm outside of Canada - so you really do not know anything about them. So that won't work either. Not to mention if you judge on a case by case basis it becomes subjective in nature anyways - which means it is in the eye of the interviewer as well.
Click to expand...

Your definition of "a functioning member of society" is subjective too. This is not an argument in your favour either.
 
And where does all of this contemplation get us? Perhaps judging people on their nationality, ethnicity or cultural background isn't the way to go...
 
theowne said:
But you also have to remember that these provinces have a large amount of poverty among Aboriginal communities and as a result, crime, (which is horrible, by the way), so that also boosts the numbers, doesn't it?
Click to expand...

So? Send them back where they came from. Maybe that's a good excuse for bridging the Bering Strait
 
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