Why Streetcars Make People Crazy! (Picture)

[leopetr]

They don't - they aren't particularly consistent at any time of the day.

Pink and Purple are pretty regular for me at 7 and Warden.

and they seem to refuse to short-turn vehicles that are late.

You make it sound like it's a bad thing. I wish TTC would adopt the same no-short-turns-ever practice.

 

[reaperexpress]

They don't - they aren't particularly consistent at any time of the day.

It is not unusual to have to wait 20 minutes for a bus on the Orange - despite headways being 15 minutes or better. Sames goes for the times I've taken Purple - the longest I've seen is 35 minutes.

Are you sure the headway is actually 15min or better? Viva used to guarantee headways less than 15min, but some routes have now had service changes which set headways greater than 15min. Viva Orange has poor ridership, so I'd expect it to be one of the first to have service reduced now that Viva has quietly made away with the "15 minute guarantee".

The rest of the YRT system is no better - they seem to have very few on-street supervisors (preferring to use GPS and staff behind keyboards at the various divisions), and they seem to refuse to short-turn vehicles that are late.

I've commuted daily on YRT Route 5 for 4 years, and I am consistently impressed with its service reliability. The bus is so reliable that I rarely wait more than a couple light cycles before it arrives.

Then again, I've heard from drivers that on the former BT/YRT Route 77 Centre, it wasn't uncommon to be as much as an hour behind schedule.

This reflects the nature of scheduling. Fixed schedules work well on short routes with very predictable traffic such as #5, but not so well on longer, more unpredictable routes such #3 and #77.

It remains a mystery to me why the TTC does not use headway-based scheduling on its streetcar routes, given how unpredictable trip times can be, and how frequent service is. It's not like anyone believes the schedule anyway.

 

[LordWanker]

@Mapleson
Alright, maybe I was a bit overreacting...I apologize for that. Actually, I was more angry with what Miller has done to Toronto. However, since this is a totally different topic, I am not going to do it here.

So, getting back to the topic of streetcars, personally I still think that it would be better to either build it underground or overhead. Even though I do not live in downtown, but I know how hard it is to drive in downtown...with all the one ways and whatever, it's insane. With streetcars operating on the same level, it's even worse. And who says you have to put buses on these routes? With the LRT built underground, buses won't be needed anymore (or you can still run some bus routes if needed). The whole point was to get cars off the streets right? To be honest, I am no transit expert, I am just giving suggestions based on how I feel, not trying to fight with anyone here...but after taking a vacation for a month in Taiwan, I felt that everything was so convenient there, and I thought the same could be done here cause Toronto's got so much potential to grow. The only problem is, we got no cash!

From below, not having streetcars will not make any difference to the traffic congestion in Taiwan. Where exactly is the convenience?

 

[Chuck]

I don't ride busses.

Streetcars + LRT please!

Too general. Of course streetcars are more pleasant to ride if we're dealing with a local route operating in mixed traffic - even average transit riders experience that 'aww man' feeling when they are waiting for a streetcar and end up getting picked up by a substitute bus instead. However, I would have to say that the most pleasant surface transit routes to ride that are offered by the TTC are the express bus routes operating on Sheppard, Finch, and Steeles. It feels very nice to be able to bypass so many stops and actually experience comparable travel times to cars.

 

[noctis]

From below, not having streetcars will not make any difference to the traffic congestion in Taiwan. Where exactly is the convenience?

That's because they are building new subway lines now, and most of them are opening for revenue service in the next few years...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/TRMEHP.jpg (credits goes to wikipedia: taipei mrt)

...whereas Toronto took years to plan, and more years to build, and in the end, nothing gets done...one good example is the DRL...I mean come on, how long do we have to wait? 50 years?

 

[drum118]

103 years for the DRL

 

[Paleo]

Five pages and no one posted the infamous Ottawa Transitway winter pile up?

Thankfully we don't get a lot of snow in Canada so who can't wait until we replace all of the streetcars with articulated buses?

 

[smallspy]

Pink and Purple are pretty regular for me at 7 and Warden.

Maybe I've been particularly unlucky. While I admit that I'm not out in that neck of the woods particularly often, when I am and I take the Purple or Pink, it has never been uncommon for me to wait the scheduled headway or more.

Meanwhile at the other end of Purple - York U - I frequently see the displays showing the Purple departing at irregular frequencies due to bunching and vehicles running late or early.

You make it sound like it's a bad thing. I wish TTC would adopt the same no-short-turns-ever practice.

It is a bad thing. Running on headways is okay if the headways are close, but on routes with, say, a 33 minute headway having all three buses arriving inside of 40 minutes is not acceptable. This is a situation where one of the buses could be short-turned and be put close to a schedule in the other direction and the whole schedule of the route maintained.

Are you sure the headway is actually 15min or better? Viva used to guarantee headways less than 15min, but some routes have now had service changes which set headways greater than 15min. Viva Orange has poor ridership, so I'd expect it to be one of the first to have service reduced now that Viva has quietly made away with the "15 minute guarantee".

Orange is scheduled for every 15 minutes with the exception of very early in the morning and the last couple of trips at night. And until Zum 501 started, it was every 10 or 11 minutes at rush hours.

I've commuted daily on YRT Route 5 for 4 years, and I am consistently impressed with its service reliability. The bus is so reliable that I rarely wait more than a couple light cycles before it arrives.

Perhaps it comes down to the route you take. Where I am in the "Southwest Region", my route has been fantastically unpredictable although admittedly it is a bit better this year. And the traffic isn't nearly as bad as some others, such as the 77.

This reflects the nature of scheduling. Fixed schedules work well on short routes with very predictable traffic such as #5, but not so well on longer, more unpredictable routes such #3 and #77.

But if you have long headways than you have no choice but to use a schedule. Do you really expect someone to just walk out of their house or work when a bus comes every 25 minutes?

And as for using the various methods of technology to figure out when the bus is coming, they are only good if they are reliable. And YRTs doesn't seem to be.

It remains a mystery to me why the TTC does not use headway-based scheduling on its streetcar routes, given how unpredictable trip times can be, and how frequent service is. It's not like anyone believes the schedule anyway.

With the exception of a small handful of routes at certain times, I agree completely.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[accura407]

Are you sure the headway is actually 15min or better? Viva used to guarantee headways less than 15min, but some routes have now had service changes which set headways greater than 15min. Viva Orange has poor ridership, so I'd expect it to be one of the first to have service reduced now that Viva has quietly made away with the "15 minute guarantee".

Well if they did away with the 15 minute guarentee for all of the VIVA routes, that would be disappointing but for VIVA Orange it is completely acceptable...why?

Ever since ZUM started, Hwy 7 West has 7.5 minute frequencies 7 days a week! Now, i live right along the route and surely benefit from it but i don't think that 7.5 minute frequencies are justified along hwy 7 on a sunday or late evenings...15 minutes is enough

Yes...it is true that the 7.5 minute frequency only extends to York U but then from there you have countless TTC services that take you to Downsview station.

So for VIVA Orange, a 20 minute frequency is completely acceptable because of the service being provided by ZUM. VIVA Orange is like an orphan kid on Hwy 7 because it ends nowhere (Martin Grove) and takes you to a stop just a bit further than ZUM. If Metrolinx had full regional control over transit, i would scrap VIVA Orange and make ZUM the only service available (with 10 min rush hour/15 min off-peak) then extend the line to Downsview...

Right now the duplication in service is such a waste...Hwy 7 West is not the Hurontario corridor!

 

[Mapleson]

Five pages and no one posted the infamous Ottawa Transitway winter pile up?

Thankfully we don't get a lot of snow in Canada so who can't wait until we replace all of the streetcars with articulated buses?

Ummm, there were 4 posts of the Ottawa Transpo bus queues. Or were you being sarcastic? If fact, only LordWanker's photo of Taiwan was a non-Ottawa example of bus congestion.

picture fight!!

Here's a picture I took in Ottawa a while ago, and the buses are all jammed because there is limited space at the stops they all have to serve.

EDIT: Oops, just realized someone already posted my other almost identical picture.

Fun fact: the other picture was used in a Seattle Transit report comparing LRT and BRT (Warning: 9MB), and was captioned: "Capacity issues on Ottawa’s Transitway spurred implementation of light rail and a downtown transit tunnel."

 

[JoeParez]

So for VIVA Orange, a 20 minute frequency is completely acceptable because of the service being provided by ZUM. VIVA Orange is like an orphan kid on Hwy 7 because it ends nowhere (Martin Grove) and takes you to a stop just a bit further than ZUM. If Metrolinx had full regional control over transit, i would scrap VIVA Orange and make ZUM the only service available (with 10 min rush hour/15 min off-peak) then extend the line to Downsview...

VivaNext has a "route" extending to Highway 50, whether or not it's Viva Orange remains to be seen. Although I did read somewhere that Viva Orange will be replaced by Viva Purple once the subway station is complete...

ninja edit: Aha! It was Wikipedia ---

In the future (2015), as the Vaughan North-South Link transit corridor, the Viva Orange line will be replaced by a subway line on the portion of the route from York University to Downsview Station, as part of the Toronto Transit Commission's Spadina subway extension, and by Viva Purple along the Highway 7 portion of the route, eliminating a transfer for east-west travellers. Eventually, the entire transitway (i.e., Highway 7) portion of the route could be upgraded to allow light rail transit on this corridor.

 

[new.flyer.408]

VivaNext has a "route" extending to Highway 50, whether or not it's Viva Orange remains to be seen. Although I did read somewhere that Viva Orange will be replaced by Viva Purple once the subway station is complete...

ninja edit: Aha! It was Wikipedia ---

No guarantees. Last I heard Purple was going to be redirected to 407 Station, but this is from February. Service planning isn't giving straight answers.

 

[BMO]

103 years for the DRL

bull, guarantee in 2013, the DRL will be in Metrolinx's Big Move 2.0 as a priority project.

 

[BMO]

No guarantees. Last I heard Purple was going to be redirected to 407 Station, but this is from February. Service planning isn't giving straight answers.

Viva Purple will most definitely be going to VCC station and continuing west effectively replacing Viva Orange. They are building the on-street stations that connect to the underground subway at VCC so that the buses can stop and continue through with shorter loading times.

 

[new.flyer.408]

Yeah. It'll cut through H2-VMC, and the routing west of VMC is unknown - but a 60ft bay is being placed at 407 Station for Purple.

I think it's dumb too, but Service planning has another few years to sort it out.