Why Streetcars Make People Crazy! (Picture)

[JoeParez]

haha! Not the correct pitcure to use. But the subway DOES experience bunching, and delays due to longer than usual dwells times, people being dicks and holding doors(I actually pushed one douche out of the doorwell once), and emergencies. I have seen situations where you can see a train behind yours because of delays.

True. I just wanted to call out the Lower Bay photo.
Also, don't forget the wonderful delay of people pressing the Passenger Assistance alarm to stop the train thinking it's the stop request line on buses and streetcars.

 

[Electrify]

From Wikipedia:

The priority given to personal vehicles and notably to the automobile led to a loss in quality of life, particularly in large cities where smog, traffic congestion, sound pollution and parking became problematic. Acknowledging this, some authorities saw fit to redefine their transport policies. Rapid transit required a heavy investment and presented problems in terms of subterranean spaces that required constant security. For rapid transit, the investment was mainly in underground construction, which made it impossible in some cities (with underground water reserves, archaeological remains, etc.). Metro construction thus was not a universal panacea.

The advantages of the tram thus became once again visible. At the end of the 1970s, some governments studied, and then built new tram lines. In France, Nantes and Grenoble lead the way in terms of the modern tram, and new systems were inaugurated in 1985 and 1988. The first UK modern light rail system opened in Manchester in 1992 with Italian built vehicles. In 1994 Strasbourg opened a system with novel British-built trams, specified by the city, with the goal of breaking with the archaic conceptual image that was held by the public.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_trams

 

[Mapleson]

I'm actually genuinly curious, what is the benefit of streetcars over electric busses other than increased capacity? Is there any other benefit?

1) Increased fuel efficiency - Steel/steel interfaces has about 14% of the friction than Rubber/Asphalt interfaces reducing the required energy consumption per unit mass. Meaning 7 streetcars = 1 ETB.

2) Decreased operating costs - an increase in capacity means a decease in operator cost per system user. 3 streetcars = 2 ETB

3) Faster loading - Multiple entrances decrease dwell times.

4) Route visibility - Potential riders can see the tracks and know where the route goes, whereas ETB have no equal draw mechanism.

5) Reduced road maintainance - We have over $200 million backlog in needed street repairs. ETB damage the roads more and contribute to rutting.

6) Commuter draw - Typically only 5% of rapid bus users transfer from cars, while 30%+ of streetcar users transfer from private vehicle commutes.

subway is the way to go y'all! but since we got no cash, dun even think about it...

personally, i am not a big fan of streetcars either...i dun care if it's LRT or just plain streetcars, they all take up space! besides, WE DON'T NEED THEM!

whatever the ford brothers are doin now, i hope they keep doin their best. hopefully we can find some cash and build subways. i am tired of this sh**, been living here for 16 years and still nothing has changed...

please, learn from other countries: hong kong, taiwan, etc. use them as role models

If you've lived here for 16 years, you've seen amalgamation and the Sheppard Subway open. Do you think the Sheppard Subway was the best thing to do, because it was a subway? Or do you think we might have spent the money better by sizing our construction to our need?

What exactly were you expecting might have happened that such things and many more constitute "still nothing has changed"?

^^Both Hong Kong and Taiwan have tram systems. Yeesh.

You guys do not get there shouldn't be a debate of what technology is better. It's not a one size fits all deal. Great transit have both streetcars AND ETB, as well as subways, and LRT. You cannot just have a system of buses, and subways. History has shown you need intermediate capacity, which streetcars provide.

Well put. You need to look at the needs and issues of a particular area to see what particular mix of transportation solution would best serve.

yes i understand that, i mean if they really want to build the LRT, then build it underground...that i am fine with...

I'm fine with the City giving me $10,000 every year instead of paying property tax. Why don't we just give everyone a helecopter? If you are going to build a subway you might as well build a HRT subway instead of a LRT subway and get some value for money.

I've always wondered whether it would be feasible or possible to have cross over or "by-pass" tracks installed on routes so that streetcars can well, by-pass disabled streetcars. I know that there would be extensive engineering and communication involved to do it however, wouldn't it be convenient for a moving streetcar to switch to the oncoming tracks (by communicating with the oncoming streetcar) to by pass a stalled vehicle in order to reduce bunch-ups and keep service flowing?

It is both feasible and possible to have cross-overs between LRT tracks. However, they cause both noise (duh-dunk) and vibrations as the vehicle crosses over them (regardless of direction of travel). Between that and the safety hazard of trapping limbs or debris, we've not used these often in recent years in Toronto, if at all.

 

[Electrify]

Streetcars are better than electric buses because:

4) Can go faster than electric buses when not mixed with traffic. The streetcar in the Queensway frequently leaves behind cars that are speeding in the parallel gardiner expressway.

Actually, while the reduced rolling resistance of steel reduces energy costs while cruising, it also means less grip which can affect acceleration performance. Streetcars are still slightly better than a diesel bus when it comes to accelerating because they use electricity rather than fossil fuels, but an electric trolleybus can blow both of them out of the water.

Trolleybuses I do believe are designed with a limited stop speed, to ensure they don't lose their connection to the wires above. Trams tend to have higher maximum speeds, but are still fairly low since they are designed for urban streets. This can be adjusted by the manufacturer though. Diesel buses have the highest maximum speed as they are regularly used on highways.

 

[reaperexpress]

Actually, while the reduced rolling resistance of steel reduces energy costs while cruising, it also means less grip which can affect acceleration performance. Streetcars are still slightly better than a diesel bus when it comes to accelerating because they use electricity rather than fossil fuels, but an electric trolleybus can blow both of them out of the water.

I think trolleybuses tend to only be rear-wheel-drive, whereas trams often power all wheels, which makes up for the relative reduction in traction per wheel.

Trolleybuses I do believe are designed with a limited stop speed, to ensure they don't lose their connection to the wires above. Trams tend to have higher maximum speeds, but are still fairly low since they are designed for urban streets. This can be adjusted by the manufacturer though. Diesel buses have the highest maximum speed as they are regularly used on highways.

The CLRVs can theoretically go up to 110km/h, which that's roughly the speed buses are electronically limited to.

The theoretical top speed of a pantograph-equipped light rail vehicle is considerably higher than a diesel bus, because they are guided. Buses can't practically go much more than 100km/h, whereas with more aerodynamics and more power, light rail vehicles could far exceed that.

Some fast European regional trains are very similar to light rail vehicles. In fact, some North American "LRT" systems use European light trains (O-Train, NJT River line, Austin LRT, Oceanside Sprinter).

For example the NS Sprinter Lighttrain can go up to 160km/h, much faster than a bus could safely go.

 

[noctis]

@Mapleson
Alright, maybe I was a bit overreacting...I apologize for that. Actually, I was more angry with what Miller has done to Toronto. However, since this is a totally different topic, I am not going to do it here.

So, getting back to the topic of streetcars, personally I still think that it would be better to either build it underground or overhead. Even though I do not live in downtown, but I know how hard it is to drive in downtown...with all the one ways and whatever, it's insane. With streetcars operating on the same level, it's even worse. And who says you have to put buses on these routes? With the LRT built underground, buses won't be needed anymore (or you can still run some bus routes if needed). The whole point was to get cars off the streets right? To be honest, I am no transit expert, I am just giving suggestions based on how I feel, not trying to fight with anyone here...but after taking a vacation for a month in Taiwan, I felt that everything was so convenient there, and I thought the same could be done here cause Toronto's got so much potential to grow. The only problem is, we got no cash!

 

[Long Island Mike]

First, I just had to post this picture...

Second, the biggest flaw with Toronto's streetcars, besides operating in mixed traffic, is that they are just buses on rails. In the late 70s and early 80s when cities began to reinvest in light rail, they made trains several times longer than traditional streetcars. In fact, Toronto's streetcars are some of the last traditional sized streetcars constructed.

The new streetcars will turn our streetcar routes into an ultra-light metro system, all with very little investment required to our current tram infrastructure.

Electrify: I remember something like this happening on at least one of my Toronto visits and it is hard to believe sometimes that a mishap like this
can foul a streetcar/trolley line up like this...the sheer number of backed-up cars shows how frequently these lines operate...

I am all for LRT routes but I feel that subways should eventually replace the busiest routes as we have talked here about elsewhere in the T&I Section...
LI MIKE

 

[RC8]

@noctis

Let me guess, people in Taipei all demand a detached house, a front and a backyard, they want to be able to drive everywhere, and all families own (or want to own) several cars to commute to work. And it was under those circumstances that they got all those shiny new subways, right?

P.S. Your posts fit the negative stereotype of the immigrants who don't quite 'get it'. The type that says 'food is better in my home country 'cause it tastes better' and so on and so forth.

 

[RC8]

I am all for LRT routes but I feel that subways should eventually replace the busiest routes as we have talked here about elsewhere in the T&I Section...
LI MIKE

There really is no reason to not build a subway on Adelaide from Shaw (Liberty Village) to the West Don Lands. Such a project, even if it's a tunneled LRT that can be upgraded in the future, would pay for itself. If you then connect this subway with the Bloor line through following roughly the rail corridor on one end and the Don River on the other, we'd suddenly have spectacular transit coverage in all of downtown. Those connections can be made later I'm sure, as that line going on Adelaide would be ridiculously successful on its own. I'm certain a project of this nature would if anything increase TTC revenue in the long term, reduce congestion significantly, and maintain the trend towards higher density we've been seeing over the past decade.

The way I picture it is having exits on both Richmond and King connected through inner walkways at each station, for example. Walkways, activated by weight or the push of a button, would only need to function when in demand. Wet dream material.

That said, streetcars in King and Queen should stay.

 

[TOareaFan]

I'd pick riding a streetcar over a bus any day, but the pictures of bunched streetcars are an all to common occurrence especially along Spadina. I don't know how many times I've seen bunched up cars at the QQ/Spadina intersection.

I see bunching on King all the time from my office window and while I occasionally ride the King car I have never used the Spadina line but always assumed that would be our one line free from any significant level of bunching because it is on it's own ROW.......any idea why it bunches?

EDIT: I should also ask if the bunching on Spadina is "normal" or just a Summer of '11 issue caused by regular King and Bathurst cars on detour?

 

[PinkLucy]

I've seen the bunching long before the summer. Not sure why it happens, especially at Spadina/QQ since a lot of the Spadina cars short turn at King and don't come all the way south. But it's not unusual to see two or three cars heading south to turn at QQ at the same time two to three cars are heading north out of the turnaround. One day I'll remember to take a picture instead of thinking "gee, I should have taken a picture of that", lol

 

[Electrify]

I think trolleybuses tend to only be rear-wheel-drive, whereas trams often power all wheels, which makes up for the relative reduction in traction per wheel.

When I was in Montreal, I could not believe how quick their trains accelerated. And being rubber tired, it is arguably a very elaborate guided trolleybus way rather than a railway.

 

[TOareaFan]

I've seen the bunching long before the summer. Not sure why it happens, especially at Spadina/QQ since a lot of the Spadina cars short turn at King and don't come all the way south. But it's not unusual to see two or three cars heading south to turn at QQ at the same time two to three cars are heading north out of the turnaround. One day I'll remember to take a picture instead of thinking "gee, I should have taken a picture of that", lol

I was/am not doubting you.....just seems strange. Every time someone talks about bunching on King and/or Queen, it is suggested that it is because of the lack of dedicated ROW...then I read your observation that bunching is a particular problem on Spadina.....just seems strange.

 

[RC8]

I've seen the bunching long before the summer. Not sure why it happens, especially at Spadina/QQ since a lot of the Spadina cars short turn at King and don't come all the way south. But it's not unusual to see two or three cars heading south to turn at QQ at the same time two to three cars are heading north out of the turnaround. One day I'll remember to take a picture instead of thinking "gee, I should have taken a picture of that", lol

2 reasons. Sometimes they wait to have 2 streetcars so that people at each stop can get on a streetcar at the same time (they know all people won't fit in a single one).

However, the vast majority of times it's because drivers on the QEW often don't allow streetcars to go through when they should. Individual vehicles getting off the highway have priority over the streetcars, so all it takes is for drivers to not give them space and streetcars are often stuck there for 3 or 4 traffic light cycles. Disgusting and unacceptable, but some drivers just go through (as they should) and force the cars getting off the highway to slow down and allow the streetcars to go through.

Normally I take the streetcar every morning at Bremner, so I get a clear view of the action.

 

[PinkLucy]

TOFan, I've been meaning to take pictures to send to TTC because it drives me mental!

RC8: QEW? I assume you mean the Gardiner. That makes sense in the morning, but it seems to happen at non-rush-hour times too